DISCUSSIONS
I'd like to bring up one less-so-well-discussed conflict from the early stages of World War II, which some argue affected the outcome of the global war a great deal, the Winter War. It 70 years ago tomorrow, on the 30th of November, 1939.
The war was a direct result of the secret protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the non-aggression pact between Germany and the USSR, in which the countries divided up Eastern and Northern Europe into spheres of influence. This pact allowed Germany to take over most of Poland and the Soviets to occupy eastern Poland and the Baltic states. Finland fell into Soviet sphere of influence.
The Soviet government demanded the Finns to transfer territories along the border, and allow the Soviets to build a naval base near Helsinki. After Finland disagreed, the Soviet Union staged an incident in the village of Mainila, where they claimed the Finnish artillery had shelled Soviet areas. The USSR started an offensive to occupy whole Finland.
The war turned out to be a political and strategic mistake to the USSR. After the invasion, League of Nations expelled the Soviet Union on the grounds it had acted as the aggressor. In the early battles, the Finnish forces proved that a minor power could defend against a superior enemy. As the war went on, Western interest was focused on this front when the Phony War was going on in Europe.
One of the most well known examples of the Finnish defence is the Battle of Raate Road in the first week of 1940, where the Finns destroyed a whole Soviet division along the road with own losses of 400 men. The Finnish troops deployed the motti tactics, i.e. encircled the Soviet troops from the forests.
The Soviets failed to gain their objectives of a brief war with a triumphal entry of the Soviet troops to Helsinki. The casualty numbers began to grow too high for the Soviets, and the with the threat of a Franco-British intervention, peace negotiations started with the mediation of Sweden. After 105 days of fighting, on the 13th of March, 1940, peace went into effect.
The Soviet losses outnumbered the Finnish losses greatly. Historians claim the reason for the Soviet military failure include: the lack of proper materiel and training for winter and forest warfare; the exceptionally cold winter; the purges in the Soviet high command in the 1930s; morale of the Finnish people, the "Spirit of the Winter War" which is said to unite the people even today; the imaginative tactics and the use of terrain and weather conditions by the Finns.
Of the effects of the conflict, it is said that the Soviet defeat convinced Hitler that German army could win on the Eastern front, changing the course of the war. In the Soviet Union, the need was seen to quickly develop the army to save the country. The Allied Supreme War Council proved ineffective. Finland began to form closer ties with Germany to avoid being left alone fighting the USSR again.
If you managed to read this far, I would like to start a discussion here on the Winter War. To start, what do you know about the topic? Do you think it was important on the bigger scale of things, somehow affecting the course of the World War? Why you think the war turned out as it did? I would be glad to see Russian point of view as well. Any comments are welcome.
Winter War 70 years
30 November 1939 - 13 March 1940
- SL
- location: Finland
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I believe that the winter war was important, as it made Finland drift towards the axis in world war two, and when the eastern front was opened up, Finland managed to distract the Soviet military away from the central eastern front, which made the war drag out longer. But the allies did not declare war on Finland(Except for the USA) which preserved friendly relations with the west after the war, and when peace was made in 1944, Finland guaranteed that it would not be involved in the cold war, and considering that it comes into contact with Russia and would have been a useful site for NATO to put defensive missles, the winter war did have a profound affect on history.
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If it aint Deutsch it aint meuch.
To add on to what I said before, the winter war also affected history in a major way because it made the USSR decide to modernized its military and ended the use of multi-turret tanks like the T-100(2 turrets) and the T-35(5 turrets), which may have saved the soviet union from Germany when the war in the east began.
Is that cheese?
If it aint Deutsch it aint meuch.
There are a few statements here which probably should be addressed:
SL said "The war was a direct result of the secret protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the non-aggression pact between Germany >and the USSR, in which the countries divided up Eastern and Northern Europe into spheres of influence."
This war was obviously already planned before the Pact (otherwise why specifically ask for permission), and would have occurred whether or not Germany gave the USSR permission to do so. The only thing that would have prevented the war is:
Either A.) If Germany or the allies were seriously willing to declare war over Finland (unlikely)
B.) Finland agreed to the territory transfer without war
re: The implication of this article that the USSR lost the war
Its always easy to find the victor of a war as the one(s) dictating the terms of the peace treaty. The terms of the Moscow Peace Treaty were most definitely dictated by the USSR
USSR gained all the previously requested territory+more+war material in exchange for the captured Petsamo territory which the USSR didn't really care that much about anyway
Its far more accurate to say that although the USSR failed to annex Finland, they still won the war; albeit at a high price of soldiers.
- Carl
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crazydude said
I believe that the winter war was important, as it made Finland drift towards the axis in world war two, and when the eastern front was opened up, Finland managed to distract the Soviet military away from the central eastern front, which made the war drag out longer. But the allies did not declare war on Finland(Except for the USA) which preserved friendly relations with the west after the war, and when peace was made in 1944, Finland guaranteed that it would not be involved in the cold war, and considering that it comes into contact with Russia and would have been a useful site for NATO to put defensive missles, the winter war did have a profound affect on history.
Definitely it affected the balance of power in Northern Europe during WW2. The Finnish political rhetoric usually highlights that allying, or as it is more correctly said, cooperating with Germany was more or less not dependent on Finland, but when it appeared that the Western Allies, the USA or Sweden would not back Finland in a case of a renewed Soviet attack, Germany was the only choice. I think this was more of a conscious choice.
The Finnish war effort in Operation Barbarossa helped the German advance. The early peace negotiations, and the sufficient war materiel from Nazi Germany that strengthened the military made it possible for the country to remain unoccupied and neutral after the war. Finland was an important player between East and West in the Cold War.
Winter War 70 years
30 November 1939 - 13 March 1940
- SL
- location: Finland
- joined: Oct 14, 2009
- posts: 200
Carl said
There are a few statements here which probably should be addressed:
Good points.
SL said "The war was a direct result of the secret protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the non-aggression pact between Germany >and the USSR, in which the countries divided up Eastern and Northern Europe into spheres of influence."
This war was obviously already planned before the Pact (otherwise why specifically ask for permission), and would have occurred whether or not Germany gave the USSR permission to do so. The only thing that would have prevented the war is:
That is correct, the Soviet Union did want to gain more power, and its objectives must have included getting back the territories lost by the Russian Empire, or the USSR itself (it was Lenin who accepted the Finnish declaration of independence).
Either A.) If Germany or the allies were seriously willing to declare war over Finland (unlikely)
Yes, very unlikely. The Pact guaranteed the Soviets free hands with the Baltic states and Finland by Germany. The allies did nothing to save Poland, so why Finland either?
B.) Finland agreed to the territory transfer without war
This was the option Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania chose. They could avoid a war by accepting the Soviet demands, but later faced annexation.
re: The implication of this article that the USSR lost the war
Its always easy to find the victor of a war as the one(s) dictating the terms of the peace treaty. The terms of the Moscow Peace Treaty were most definitely dictated by the USSR
USSR gained all the previously requested territory+more+war material in exchange for the captured Petsamo territory which the USSR didn't really care that much about anyway
Its far more accurate to say that although the USSR failed to annex Finland, they still won the war; albeit at a high price of soldiers.
This is true. I wrote this consciously provocatively and from a Finnish point of view. The tone of this text reflects the atmosphere in Finland surrounding this event. I never mentioned that either side won the war; depending on the point of view, both can be claimed to have won. Foremost, my own interpretation is that the USSR failed to meet its objective resulting in a Pyrrhic victory (just as you claimed).
Anyway, you seem to know quite a bit about Winter War!
Winter War 70 years
30 November 1939 - 13 March 1940
- SL
- location: Finland
- joined: Oct 14, 2009
- posts: 200
Perhaps my last point should have been articulated better
It was meant as a observation that the article really does not describe the end of the war well.
Whether or not anyone wants to call the war a Finnish victory is a opinion. It was certainly a impressive feat for Finland to defend as well as they did against such a significantly more powerful foe
If someone had no prior knowledge of the winter war when reading the article, they might come to the conclusion that USSR thought the cost of war was too high, sued for peace, and then withdrew. Without any mention of the loss of territory, why would someone conjure up a image approximating the post war situation.
- Carl
- location: United States
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Finnish were scared of Russians even after the Winter War everyone go do there homework on the Lapland war :)
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AlfredBNJ said
Finnish were scared of Russians even after the Winter War everyone go do there homework on the Lapland war :)
That's true. This is why Finland sought to ally with someone, and that turned out to be Germany. Finland couldn't have possibly defended against the Soviet Union in a renewed war again. To prevent this, during WW2 Finland cooperated with Germany and during Cold War it remained neutral and tried to keep relations with both the East and the West as good as possible, sometimes allowing the Soviet Union to intervene in the domestic politics.
Winter War 70 years
30 November 1939 - 13 March 1940
- SL
- location: Finland
- joined: Oct 14, 2009
- posts: 200
SL said
AlfredBNJ said
Finnish were scared of Russians even after the Winter War everyone go do there homework on the Lapland war :)
That's true. This is why Finland sought to ally with someone, and that turned out to be Germany. Finland couldn't have possibly defended against the Soviet Union in a renewed war again. To prevent this, during WW2 Finland cooperated with Germany and during Cold War it remained neutral and tried to keep relations with both the East and the West as good as possible, sometimes allowing the Soviet Union to intervene in the domestic politics.
Then there is nothing to be proud of after the first Winter War, they were terrible allies. Most people fail to realize that mass amount of supplies actually made it through the Russians blockade from USA that delivered Finland's win in the first place.
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Even though I am Israeli, I find the Winter War one of my best subjects, in history and in WWII.
The Finnish people remember the Winter War as a Independence War, even though they 'lost' the war, the Finns remains free even after the Continuation War with Germany and the Lapland War (against Germany).
The Winter War is very important because it showed major flaws in the Russian and allows Germany to quickly plan the invasion of USSR.
A few things that Finland showed that:
A smaller nation with a mere population of three millions with 300,000 soldiers are able to fight the 'Communist Evil'.
The elements of nature can effect the war (the bitter cold).
The failure of the human waves attack and the Russian quickly changing it.
The modernize of sub-machine gun in the Russian army, the Suomi M-31 a sub-machine gun created in Finland was copied and made into a steel stamped version called infamously as the PPSH-40, 41, and 43.
The well use of snipers, the Russian felled victims to many snipers and therefore the Russians quickly created sniper schools, in many Russian squads there will be always one sniper.
Modernize the airforce, the Russians quickly modernize their airforce because of the smaller but well known airforce.
The use of missing officers, the Purge quickly limited the Russian armies, and therefore it took away to regain power over the army.
Semi-automatic weapon designs was proved to be flawed and the Russian remade them as the SVT-40.
This war gave Finland a boost of nations appreciations and respect, while it hurt the USSR badly.
- Mouzie
- location: Israel
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Mouzie said
Even though I am Israeli, I find the Winter War one of my best subjects, in history and in WWII.
The Finnish people remember the Winter War as a Independence War, even though they 'lost' the war, the Finns remains free even after the Continuation War with Germany and the Lapland War (against Germany).
The Winter War is very important because it showed major flaws in the Russian and allows Germany to quickly plan the invasion of USSR.
A few things that Finland showed that:
A smaller nation with a mere population of three millions with 300,000 soldiers are able to fight the 'Communist Evil'.
The elements of nature can effect the war (the bitter cold).
The failure of the human waves attack and the Russian quickly changing it.
The modernize of sub-machine gun in the Russian army, the Suomi M-31 a sub-machine gun created in Finland was copied and made into a steel stamped version called infamously as the PPSH-40, 41, and 43.
The well use of snipers, the Russian felled victims to many snipers and therefore the Russians quickly created sniper schools, in many Russian squads there will be always one sniper.
Modernize the airforce, the Russians quickly modernize their airforce because of the smaller but well known airforce.
The use of missing officers, the Purge quickly limited the Russian armies, and therefore it took away to regain power over the army.
Semi-automatic weapon designs was proved to be flawed and the Russian remade them as the SVT-40.
This war gave Finland a boost of nations appreciations and respect, while it hurt the USSR badly.
Or possibly did it fail because Stalin purged his armies command staff and left people with no experience to fight and lead in Finland? Could it be... I think it could ;)
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AlfredBNJ said
Or possibly did it fail because Stalin purged his armies command staff and left people with no experience to fight and lead in Finland? Could it be... I think it could ;)
Correct, and not only the lack of skilled officers contributed in Soviet military losses, but also the use of soldiers with practically no training, experience and equipment (clothing, skies, ...) for winter warfare. For example, the Soviet division defeated at Raate consisted of Ukrainian soldiers, and you know, Ukrainian winter is a bit different from that of Finland.
Winter War 70 years
30 November 1939 - 13 March 1940
- SL
- location: Finland
- joined: Oct 14, 2009
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SL said
AlfredBNJ said
Or possibly did it fail because Stalin purged his armies command staff and left people with no experience to fight and lead in Finland? Could it be... I think it could ;)
Correct, and not only the lack of skilled officers contributed in Soviet military losses, but also the use of soldiers with practically no training, experience and equipment (clothing, skies, ...) for winter warfare. For example, the Soviet division defeated at Raate consisted of Ukrainian soldiers, and you know, Ukrainian winter is a bit different from that of Finland.
Either way no matter how it was won Finland lead a great defense and there is no denying them this win. Yes I said win, Stalin got enough land out of that war to bury his dead.
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Well they lost their second best city, around 10-30% of their industies, and around 10% of their land. I would call that a pyrric victory.
Militaryily the Finns won, Politically the Russian won, like the 1976 Yom Kippur War, both sides claim is the victor, both sides have heavy losses. Both side won the war military or politically (Israel won via military and Egypt won by politcal). Therefore, it would most like be a stalemate or a 'tie'.
In MOST cases, the historians would look at who won the war 'militaryily' then 'gaining a few land back'.
- Mouzie
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The winterwar can be summed in 2 points:
-
It was an aftershock of the finnish revolution in the 1918, when the Finnish White forces(supported by Germany) executed about 10 000 Communists.
-
An attempt from the USSR to secure Leningrad (today St. Petersburg), because Leningrad was very close to the finnish border. USSR offered Finland a much greater area in Karelia, in exchange for the borderlands of Leningrad. Unfortunately, the Fins had already chosen their side.
In other words, the intention of the war was not to gain more power, but to secure one of the most important industrial cities.
- DronaldDuck
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DronaldDuck said
The winterwar can be summed in 2 points:
- It was an aftershock of the finnish revolution in the 1918, when the Finnish White forces(supported by Germany) executed about 10 000 Communists.
I cannot see the point why you are referring to the Finnish Civil War. Maybe it proved the Soviet Union that Germany could use Finland as a base of an attack to Russia (where your second point is correct). But, during the Winter War the former Reds who had been defeated in the Civil War united to fight for the fatherland against a common enemy. They did not see the Soviets as liberators, conversely, as invaders. Of course I'm generalising here.
- An attempt from the USSR to secure Leningrad (today St. Petersburg), because Leningrad was very close to the finnish border. USSR offered Finland a much greater area in Karelia, in exchange for the borderlands of Leningrad. Unfortunately, the Fins had already chosen their side.
The territories that the USSR offered Finland in change had already voluntarily joined Finland in the late 1910s, but the Soviets took them back. Now, they were larger in area, but less significant. The territories demanded by the Soviet Union included the most important defensive line, the Mannerheim Line, and the Finnish government couldn't trust that the war would be avoided with only giving the USSR that lifeline. Also, the Finns didn't want a Soviet military base just 100 km from Helsinki, in Hanko.
What is the side Finland had already chosen you were referring to?
Winter War 70 years
30 November 1939 - 13 March 1940
- SL
- location: Finland
- joined: Oct 14, 2009
- posts: 200
SL said
DronaldDuck said
The winterwar can be summed in 2 points:
- It was an aftershock of the finnish revolution in the 1918, when the Finnish White forces(supported by Germany) executed about 10 000 Communists.
I cannot see the point why you are referring to the Finnish Civil War. Maybe it proved the Soviet Union that Germany could use Finland as a base of an attack to Russia (where your second point is correct). But, during the Winter War the former Reds who had been defeated in the Civil War united to fight for the fatherland against a common enemy. They did not see the Soviets as liberators, conversely, as invaders. Of course I'm generalising here.
- An attempt from the USSR to secure Leningrad (today St. Petersburg), because Leningrad was very close to the finnish border. USSR offered Finland a much greater area in Karelia, in exchange for the borderlands of Leningrad. Unfortunately, the Fins had already chosen their side.
The territories that the USSR offered Finland in change had already voluntarily joined Finland in the late 1910s, but the Soviets took them back. Now, they were larger in area, but less significant. The territories demanded by the Soviet Union included the most important defensive line, the Mannerheim Line, and the Finnish government couldn't trust that the war would be avoided with only giving the USSR that lifeline. Also, the Finns didn't want a Soviet military base just 100 km from Helsinki, in Hanko.
What is the side Finland had already chosen you were referring to?
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Finland very close to the Allies as well before USSR joined up with them? After all Finland was willing to allow British troops in Lapland to move in and take over Swedish refineries because of the mass amounts of metals being exported to Germany?
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AlfredBNJ said Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Finland very close to the Allies as well before USSR joined up with them? After all Finland was willing to allow British troops in Lapland to move in and take over Swedish refineries because of the mass amounts of metals being exported to Germany?
Finland was trying to get help during the Winter War. That doesn't really count as being very close to the allies
And the allies didn't ask Finland's permission to implement the plan. They planned on using the aid attempt as a incentive for Finland to accept
- Carl
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i know this really isn't on topic to the mod but i just wanna say that even though Making History is a great game, something like the winter war where a country like Finland can prevent an invasion by the Soviet Army, and win at least a military if not political victory.
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