what i would say : There is no media coverage or to find out what happened from the mistakes of allies .Symptoms which appeared in the last century. Please; have got the message
who make peaceful revolution impossible , will make violent revolution inevitable // martin luther king
- firestone
- location: Egypt
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 266
- Banned
cavetroll1304 said
thegeniusmartin said
firestone said
no more oppressed except Serbs. During World War, an horrible event occur in Serbian territories after Yugoslav border incursions by bi armed gangs Italy and Germany without declaring war. Under the leader of gangs (PIETRO BODOGLIO) Leaving Concentration camp KILLING Youth ,children by machine gun and starvation ,Treachery Croats ......that is not the problem at this point
......................THE PROBLEM is Double standards treatment after Allies invasion of Italy (Italy become a member of allies and democratic In agreement with the war criminal) PIETRO BODOGLIO ( VS forgetting Past crimes ..... and now days Italians dont know the dirty game, not only political society ( Ignorance or informed ) ## ARE couSINs THE LONELY OPPRESSED PEOPLE IN THE WORLD ?? I'm not with or against
About that the allies invaded Italy to help the Italian people before the Yugoslavian people are not so strange at all. Italy were an axis, an ally to Germany, and were much closer (geographic to Germany) than Yugoslavia. I dont think they choose Italy before Yugoslavia because what a single gang leader did, more of what could gain the strategical pint of the allies army's! And I dont think that the Serbian people are oppressed at all. They have it well, if you compare to other nations and people!
Maybe it's just me but I don't see him saying anything about Italy being invaded before Yugoslavia.
Maybe it's just me but I didn't understand TGM's post even remotely it was all over the place and had absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
Mouzie said
AlfredBNJ said
Carl said
Here's a alternate attempt at translation:
No one is oppressed anymore except Serbs.
He then goes to loosely "describe" the genocide of Serbians by Germans/Italians/Croatians
I stopped reading. Carl this is actually pretty offensive to me, I am 1/2 Croatian and your saying that Croatians committed genocide is absolutely disgusting and untrue. Especially since the Serbs are the real ones who committed genocide in WW2 and in the Yugoslav war. Please get your facts right, just because a concentration camp was established BY GERMANS in Nazi Occupied Croatia that makes them the ones to commit genocide? How about the mass graves of Croatians that are still being found today? I honestly think you need to think before you write. I understand you are entitled to your opinion but this is downright not even near to be true or correct. By your standards you are saying Poland committed genocide in WW2 when the concentration camps were made there?
And no they aren't being oppressed unless you call a democratically elected president oppression then sure you are right my man.
No offense:There is a book, that you can buy.
This book portrays a shocking record of mass slaughter and massive persecution of the Serbian Orthodox population in the Nazi puppet state of Croatia in the years of 1941 - 1945. In this mass extermination effort some 750,000 Serbs - men, women and children - perished, along with most of their clergymen and their churches. The Jews although much less numerous than the Serbs met the same fate. These systematic and brutal massacres were at times even too much for the Nazis to tolerate. The perpetrators of these crimes are the Croatian Ustashi, a nazi-fascist movement under the leadership of the notorious Ante Pavelich. In proportion to the population, these Nazi puppets exceeded even what the Nazis themselves had done in Germany. And those that they did not exterminate, they sought - by fire and sword - to convert to Roman Catholicism.
The revolting fact is that the Ustashi were actively aided in their diabolical work of extermination and persecution by sizable segments of the Croatian Catholic clergy, many of whose members were also members of the Ustashi organization. This is not a blind charge by the author, for he cites names and places, frequently using their own sources. This book is strong medicine, and any one who reads it must be prepared to come away shocked and deeply disturbed.
I don't know if this book is legit or not but you should look up some stuff.
My friend you sound as if you were going to Serbian websites specifically there to bad mouth Croatians. The fact is you have neglected to even admit that Croatians were facing enemies bound only by ethnic hatred, Croatia was even against the Soviet all at one time. I think you need to actually get the facts and not just read what you think is right. I think you are 100% extremely biased because Croatia was part of the Axis and you have admitted you are from Israel. Also in a previous thread I saw you down a flag because it was the historic flag of Nazi Germany due to a swastika being on it? But many people like you do not even know that it was actually symbol used 1000's of years before Fascism was even thought of.
Make This Pledge:
War is peace.
Slavery is freedom.
Ignorance is strength.
What?
You call me biased?
I don't hate the flag because of the symbols, it's against MANY nations laws about banning the Nazi Flag, I was merely consern.
Also, Crotia commited it, no its or buts.
I have made a really long post stating why I 'dislike' the flag and all that to your questions or 'comment'.
I ask for you to go to email, because the large text crashes the forum and they disallowed the large posts.
Sorry.
If you like to discuss this and I can give you what I am planning to post email me at:
idf_one@live.com
- Mouzie
- location: Israel
- joined: Sep 01, 2009
- posts: 199
In defense of Croatians, >90% of them hated the Ustashi
- Carl
- location: United States
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 241
I can't see any point in this discussion. It starts with firestone posting a text which is difficult to understand, and then people try to make sense out of it. Well, Carl posts his interpretation of the original text:
Carl said
Here's a alternate attempt at translation:
--
He then goes to loosely "describe" the genocide of Serbians by Germans/Italians/Croatians with some vague references to a concentration camp (presumably Jasenovac ).
--
There is hardly any personal claim in that.
And I can honestly claim that there is no-one in the whole universe who would NOT be biased. Everybody is to some extent.
Also, I don't really think that there is any nation that has not committed unethical deeds. All have done something wrong at some point. Croatians are not an exception, and I cannot see any point in regarding them exceptionally righteous. I'm not offending Croatians or any other. I personally know many Croatians and like them as very nice people. And I also know a wonderful Serb!
But this discussion should get back to the topic.
firestone said
what i would say : There is no media coverage or to find out what happened from the mistakes of allies .Symptoms which appeared in the last century. Please; have got the message
Firestone was originally suggesting that we should talk about mistakes of the Allies. Although this is a highly sensitive subject.
Winter War 70 years
30 November 1939 - 13 March 1940
- SL
- location: Finland
- joined: Oct 14, 2009
- posts: 200
Good points SL, the Allies DID make a flaw and Poland and others states hated or dislike them because of their breaking promises to stop the German warmachines, and therefore that is why many turn to USSR (and later found out USSR is just as bad).
- Mouzie
- location: Israel
- joined: Sep 01, 2009
- posts: 199
actually many of the nations rolled over by germany were actually MORE concerned with the USSR then with Nazi Germany. to be completely fair they should have expected it. many of the minor nations paid no attention to germany because they were too afraid of the USSR. they turned a bling eye and got stabbed in the back.
- warman45
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 22, 2009
- posts: 288
Mouzie said - Also, Crotia committed it, no its or buts.
Saying that a Nazi Installed Croatian Regime created a concentration camp is dumb. YEAH They were a Nazi Installed Regime, the average Croat hated the Ustase regime, and further more Josip Broz Tito one of the primary leaders in the Yugoslav anti-Nazi movement, was a half Croat, half Slovenian. To blame an entire people for the actions of a minority who would have never come to power if not for outside influence is not only insane it is ignorant. There was a Death Camp in the Free State of Croatia (if calling a Nazi orchestrated and overseen regime free makes any sense) between 1941 and 1945. That camp was responsible for the deaths of numerous so called enemies of the state including numerous ethnic Serbs and Jews, but that does not make all Croats responsible for the deaths of those Serbs nor do the actions of ethnic Serbs in the early and mid 1990s make the entire population of Serbia responsible for the deaths of those Croats. It is this idea of blaming a whole populace for the actions of the few that has continued stupid ethnic conflicts in Europe, Africa and Asia. Further different people have talked about oppression suffered by ethnic minorities, i.e. ethnic Serbs in Kosovo and Ethnic Croats in Bosnia. Here's and idea if you're being oppressed, LEAVE, vote with your feet, if your wishes arn't being heard make an effort to move to a place where they are instead of continuing to exacerbate the situation. People need to start acting like adults for once in their lives. It is extremely childish to whine and moan about your problems when there are steps you can take to end those problems once and for all. Stop making excuses and act like a grown up.
P.S. Mouzie you need to learn to spell and if you're going to use colloquial phrases use them right. "Also, Croatia committed it, no ifs ands or buts."
Mrhistory said
P.S. Mouzie you need to learn to spell and if you're going to use colloquial phrases use them right. "Also, Croatia committed it, no ifs ands or buts."
Have you even tried to read some of firestone's posts? Are you sure Mouzie is the only one that needs to learn how to spell correctly?
"I am not your son"
~JPS
- cavetroll1304
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United States
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 1260
cavetroll1304 said
Mrhistory said
P.S. Mouzie you need to learn to spell and if you're going to use colloquial phrases use them right. "Also, Croatia committed it, no ifs ands or buts."
Have you even tried to read some of firestone's posts? Are you sure Mouzie is the only one that needs to learn how to spell correctly?
Cavetroll, Mouzie is the only one arguing here about something he knows nothing about. He obviously has some grip on the English language where as firestone is from Egypt and uses a translator almost 80% of the time.
Make This Pledge:
War is peace.
Slavery is freedom.
Ignorance is strength.
AlfredBNJ is from Israel , dont ask me why he defends mouzie
who make peaceful revolution impossible , will make violent revolution inevitable // martin luther king
- firestone
- location: Egypt
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 266
- Banned
may be defend his ignorance ,that iam from Egypt
who make peaceful revolution impossible , will make violent revolution inevitable // martin luther king
- firestone
- location: Egypt
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 266
- Banned
AlfredBNJ said
cavetroll1304 said
Mrhistory said
P.S. Mouzie you need to learn to spell and if you're going to use colloquial phrases use them right. "Also, Croatia committed it, no ifs ands or buts."
Have you even tried to read some of firestone's posts? Are you sure Mouzie is the only one that needs to learn how to spell correctly?
Cavetroll, Mouzie is the only one arguing here about something he knows nothing about. He obviously has some grip on the English language where as firestone is from Turkey and uses a translator almost 80% of the time.
It seems that AlfredBNJ most of his writing refers to criticism of English , forgetting the thread
who make peaceful revolution impossible , will make violent revolution inevitable // martin luther king
- firestone
- location: Egypt
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 266
- Banned
firestone said
AlfredBNJ is from Israel , dont ask me why he defends mouzie
I am going to go ahead and say that I am not from Israel and that I am actually not defending Mouzie as we are arguing, this thread I actually defended you when Cavtroll pointed out your flawed English I definitely won't be doing this again. But if I was Israeli what does that mean to begin with? Racism much?
firestone said
may be defend his ignorance ,that iam from Egypt
I corrected myself, you are from Egypt not Turkey I am sorry.
firestone said
AlfredBNJ said
cavetroll1304 said
Mrhistory said
P.S. Mouzie you need to learn to spell and if you're going to use colloquial phrases use them right. "Also, Croatia committed it, no ifs ands or buts."
Have you even tried to read some of firestone's posts? Are you sure Mouzie is the only one that needs to learn how to spell correctly?
Cavetroll, Mouzie is the only one arguing here about something he knows nothing about. He obviously has some grip on the English language where as firestone is from Turkey and uses a translator almost 80% of the time.
It seems that AlfredBNJ most of his writing refers to criticism of English , forgetting the thread
It was actually not me who started this argument.
Triple post much?
Make This Pledge:
War is peace.
Slavery is freedom.
Ignorance is strength.
in every nation that the German occupied, including Croatia genocides did occur, even though the native population of the nation almost all were opposed to the occupation and the genocide. however in each nation a tiny part of the population were collaborators, such as the Croatian utashe. unfortunately the utashe (who just to make sure this is clear did not represent the majority of the Croatian population). used their power not just to murder Jew's, but serbs as well. im not going to use the term genocide, since it has such heavy connotations, but it is true true that a the utashe did commit war crimes against serbian population in their territory. Serbia in turn also committed many war crimes against Croatia. both nations do have blood on their hands, both populations did kill each other, and in both cases THE ACTIONS OF THE KILLERS DID NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF THE NATION. i am not croatian or serbian, but i am 1/4 albanian from kosovo , so if im in a position to be biased its against not for serbia, but unless all of the balkan nations admit that they have commited crimes against each other in the past no progress will ever be made towards peace
- Sword_Beach
- location: Unknown
- joined: Sep 06, 2009
- posts: 125
mates , the origin of topic is bodoglio & Double standards treatment . and the world know what bodoglio make in Eithopia and f.Yugoslavia
who make peaceful revolution impossible , will make violent revolution inevitable // martin luther king
- firestone
- location: Egypt
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 266
- Banned
How about we all agree to end this
There is already enough information in this thread for people who are interested in learning about the described atrocities to find such information elsewhere
There is little point in having a debate, when noone is going to listen (everyone has already made up their minds and is not going to change them)
- Carl
- location: United States
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 241
ya, I gave up on this thread a while back. I don't even know what firestone is talking about (I get the main gist but I need to understand all his words to fully grasp the situation), and I'm done trying to figure out.
"I am not your son"
~JPS
- cavetroll1304
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United States
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 1260
@Mrhistory Before asking to improve my English, I am Israeli. I speak much, MUCH better English then most Americans here on the internet. In fact, the English language have many rules and I still see American making errors, so please. Don't ask me to 'learn' or spell right because in most cases you'll most likely not to know or fail to correct me properly.
Look at YOUR grammar and spelling before commenting on mine, also trying to be 'mature' is utterly wrong, yet you insult my intelligent and therefore YOU are immature.
Unless you're an English teacher or have a master degree in English, please. Do not try and tell me off about the English langauge (American English).
@Alfred
Please, again. Crotia did commit war crimes, no matter how much you refuse to belives. I am NOT saying that Crotians are bad. I am saying CROTIA a NATION, commited war cimes. Did I say that Crotians are bad? No, I simply said that Crotia, NOT CROTIANS commited war crimes.
Simple put: Crotia as a puppet state of Nazi Germany killed Jews and Serbs, the Crotian people are not responsible. Crotia is a nation, simple. Crotia did killed people but Crotians bad? No, you're missing my point.
To put it in plain English:
If you go to a text book-like a school book and open it and read about WWII, you'll see that wording will often if not always a neutral form.
Like: The USSR commited war crimes against the German people, does it say RUSSIANS ATTACK THE GERMAN PEOPLE?
In detailed form, when you get closer on the subject such as a website-yes, but once again in a text book, no.
Also: Japan commited war crimes against the Chinese, did I say.. Japanese, or the IJA, no. Japan, Japan as a nation.
As I so use, Crotia, Crotia as a nation. Not the people, the nation.
So, I do know what I am talking about, I am not saying all Crotians are bad, I assume this is a huge and utterly misunderstanding, I am simply posting because I read Firestone (or someone) posted that the Crotian never did anything such as against the Serbs and I proved that they are wrong with Crotia being a puppet to Nazi Germany. Again, I am sorry if this is an utter misunderstanding.
But please, read between the lines, not the words. Think before you act.
- Mouzie
- location: Israel
- joined: Sep 01, 2009
- posts: 199
You can read more about this subject here: Independent State of Croatia
Folks, we are talking about history here. WWII is one of the most documented eras in human history. If someone posts something you think is wrong, instead of sniping at them, just post facts and citations that back up your argument.
BTW, everything discussed in this thread is covered in detail in Niall Ferguson's book "The War of the World". Believe me, it's hardly a whitewash of allied behavior. In fact, I have read numerous books and articles that clearly show there were pretty terrible acts being committed by just about everyone involved.
And please, avoid personal attacks. Besides being against the rules, when you attack the person and not the argument it tends to make your own argument look weak.
Chris--
Product Manager
