Yes, the Battle of Crete. We all (or at least most of us) here at Making-history.com know of the dramatic taking of the island which displayed the German ability to use their Fallschirmjager paratrooper regiments of the Luftwaffe. But, was it an attack on the wrong island? Let me point out something:
Germany, had invaded Crete, a relatively un-important island in the Mediterranean, using their highly trained parachute and glider troops to sieze it. Yet, Hitler refused to capture Malta, which lay directly on the seaway between the Italian Libya, and Sicily.
This was an absurd choice which marked Hitler's rejection of strategy which could've brought him victory in the Mediterranean. And if a Campaign was going to be waged by the Axis in North Africa, it was vital to secure Malta.
If, on the other hand Hitler was sending troops into Libya just to notify Mussolini, with no strategic aim, German troops were being wasted.
--- Fun Facts ---
- German aircraft stationed in Crete would be further from Cairo then German aircraft in East Cyrenaica.
- Hitler wasn't the only one who was tricked into thinking Crete was important, General Halder, chief of the army staff, showed how little he knew about supplying troops on an island in a sea dominated by an enemy fleet.
IMO, Crete was Hitler's first big blunder, the Germans took some heavy losses on Crete. Of course it didn't help that they were badly scattered about in the drop; British and native defenders were able to easily handle the scattered and un-coordinated attacks.
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- cavetroll1304
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Crete was potentially strategically important for the allies. If the allies had later turned Crete into a airbase, it could have threatened Romanian oil fields
Attacking Crete before it could be reinforced with anti-aircraft guns and air support was a good idea (casualties would have been much higher if they waited)
And given the sinking of 3 cruisers, 6 destroyers and the high number of the quantity of
Allied casualties+captured allied soldiers-German casualties= ~11,000
Crete can hardly be called a German mistake
Hitler's mistake was not following up the invasion with a attack on Cyprus, Syria, or Malta
- Carl
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Carl said
Crete was potentially strategically important for the allies. If the allies had later turned Crete into a airbase, it could have threatened Romanian oil fields
Yeah, British long range bombers based on Crete would be able to reach the Romanian oil fields, which were 675 miles north. BUT, the RAF bases on the island could be blasted by German bombers 100 miles away from southern Greece. For the Germans, occupation of Crete made no more sence.
TehBoss said
Yeah, British long range bombers based on Crete would be able to reach the Romanian oil fields, which were 675 miles north. BUT, the RAF bases on the island could be blasted by German bombers 100 miles away from southern Greece. For the Germans, occupation of Crete made no more sence.
Well if Germany was treating the Mediterranean theater as a important strategic goal rather than filler while waiting for appropriate weather in Eastern Europe for a invasion.....than yes the capture of Crete would have been strategically useful
As would the capture of Cyprus, Malta, and the Suez. As would giving Admiral Darlan the concessions he wanted in order to get France to join the war as a ally
All those potential opportunities wasted because the invasion of the USSR was given top priority
On the other hand from a Eastern European theater perspective, the invasion of Crete was a mistake as Hitler would no longer consider paratrooper operations in the USSR
- Carl
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- sgtpoliteness
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Who cares about Crete. The Guns of Navarone, is much more entertaining.
"Mors ultima linea rerum est mortalis."
- MajorLufbery
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MajorLufbery said
Who cares about Crete. The Guns of Navarone, is much more entertaining.
Wow, you know, thats a great book. Sorry if this is off topic, but it looks like ur a Major too. :)
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ScientificWildAssGuess
- MajorWinters
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IF, Hitler wouldnt have invade Crete then Allied Air Force could have bombed the oil fields in Romania, but yet they loosed many well trained troops there.
"Idea becomes real" - Nordic Battle Groups motto
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- thegeniusmartin
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Crete was indeed of strategic value, as others have already stated about the oilfields, and in general the Axis could use it as a defensive lind in their southern flank. But not capitilizing on the offensive use of the island cost the Third Reich. By that time of course, Hitler was so occupied with the invasion of Russia, all other things came second. On the other side, it helped the allies, who scrambled to create their own airborne troops, not getting the accurate figures for the german paratroop losses.
It also showed future planners and leaders of those allied airborne troops, that paratroopers would have to jump with their own heavy equipment.
- Siftingsand
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You're all forgetting an number of Problems Germany had. The reason Hitler refused to attack Malta is because Mussolini demanded control. Hitler wasn't going to expend German lives for Mussolini's happiness the only reason the Afrika Corps existed is because Hitler knew that losing north Africa would be a death knell. The Attack on Crete was a brilliant and masterful operation when you taken into account how much in infancy airborne attacks were.
I agree that Hitler should have followed up his attack on Crete with something but Cyprus and Syria would have been absurd goals. The Italian Navy for all its size was worthless and the British dominated, particularly in the Eastern Mediterranean. He should have turned Crete into a fortified long range airbase to attack strategic targets in Libya and Egypt. He should have also put much more effort in the early war into modernizing and increasing the size of the largely depleted German Navy, he should have had numerous Naval bases in Italian controlled Territory in the Mediterranean and he should never have attacked the Soviet Union.
Using Crete as a staging base for invading North Africka would have been a good chance to help Rommel, although by that time it was too late to establish any real naval presence in the Medditerainin or off the coast of North Africka. Even the situation in the air was just about beyond saving. So, overall, and contraty to my above post, the amount of difference follow through attacks would have made is quite arguable, and, in my opinion, would most likley have led to greater german losses.
Feel free to correct if you think i'm wrong. I have no doubt you would have anyway, without the invitation.
- Siftingsand
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Germany invaded Crete to secure the Ploesti oil fields and remove British soldiers from Europe. If they had been left on Crete in the large numbers they had there along with large amounts of Greek soldiers it would have been used as a base to invade Greece to recapture it and cause no end if problems to German interests on mainland Europe. It would have been a much bigger thorn in Germany's side to interests in mainland Europe then Malta. In my opinion I think Malta and Crete were of equal importance but for different reasons. There was a plan to invade Malta Operation Herkules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Herkules) Ironically one of the reasons it was scrapped is because Hitler had no faith in paratroopers anymore because of the invasion of Crete and too many air, land and naval forces were tied up in North Africa who would have been the main force. Erwin Rommel and Alert Kesselring (extremely able generals) both supported the attack of Malta (Rommel even offered to siphon troops from the front line in North Africa for the invasion) and only Hitler's fears prevented it.
Mrhistory said
You're all forgetting an number of Problems Germany had. The reason Hitler refused to attack Malta is because Mussolini demanded control. Hitler wasn't going to expend German lives for Mussolini's happiness the only reason the Afrika Corps existed is because Hitler knew that losing north Africa would be a death knell. The Attack on Crete was a brilliant and masterful operation when you taken into account how much in infancy airborne attacks were.
I agree that Hitler should have followed up his attack on Crete with something but Cyprus and Syria would have been absurd goals. The Italian Navy for all its size was worthless and the British dominated, particularly in the Eastern Mediterranean. He should have turned Crete into a fortified long range airbase to attack strategic targets in Libya and Egypt. He should have also put much more effort in the early war into modernizing and increasing the size of the largely depleted German Navy, he should have had numerous Naval bases in Italian controlled Territory in the Mediterranean and he should never have attacked the Soviet Union.
To MrHistory. The whole point of the invasion of Greece was to save Italian troops invading Greece there and also the North African campaign was to save a disastrous Italian campaign to claim Egypt where German lives where lost for Italian Incompetence. Originally German strategists did not envisage fighting in Egypt.
Germany would have retained control of Malta like the did in the Balkans, Greece and North Africa denoting Italy to the junior partner. For modernising and increasing the size of the Kriegsmarine there was a plan in place called plan z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Z) which would have had the Kriegsmarine on par with the Royal Navy. It was scrapped in favour of mass construction of U boats but even then U-boats weren't mass produced until halfway through the war and achieved incredible success at first and then when these were countered elektro-boots were being made which would have nullified all allied anti submarine tactics at that stage. Also Hitler told the Kriegsmarine he wouldn't go to war till 1942 so they had only completed half of the work they started and wouldn't have been completed till 1942.
The Luftwaffe should have made a long range bomber but with Goering in control it's no surprise this was overlooked.
Also the invasion of the Soviet Union was a viable option and launched at the best time and could have been completed before winter 1941 if Hitler hadn't stopped Army Group Centre from stopping and diverting the panzer forces to the north and south the back again to carry on attacking. Two months were wasted to attack Moscow when the hard incredibly weak forces defending Moscow so if they had carried on the could have captured Moscow and gone beyond. They could also have captured Leningrad in the first couple of weeks of Barbarossa but Manstein waited at Dvinsk and didn't push his advantage to capture Leningrad when the defending forces were in disarray with no defence prepared as nothing was made of it by OKH/OKW. An interesting dilemma was the Soviets were planning to attack Romania and/or Germany in late 1941-early 1942 anyway so a pre-emptive strike was the best course of action. A book called Hitler's Panzer's In The East (which I have just finished) explains how Germany could have won the war against Russia in 1941 and dispels the myths of how Russia stopped them and the causes of the failure when in fact Hitler stopped Germany winning with his fears and economic lusts and an obsession that Leningrad being captured was the highest priority.
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
Mrhistory said
You're all forgetting an number of Problems Germany had. The reason Hitler refused to attack Malta is because Mussolini demanded control. Hitler wasn't going to expend German lives for Mussolini's happiness the only reason the Afrika Corps existed is because Hitler knew that losing north Africa would be a death knell. The Attack on Crete was a brilliant and masterful operation when you taken into account how much in infancy airborne attacks were.
Malta should have been taken to gain the control of the shipping lane to North Africka. Since, at one point, rouphly 60% of the supplies shipped were sunk by Force K, Rommel was forced to retreat in Africka to shorten his supply lines. It was not just because Mussolini demanded control. Maltas fate was in fact tied directly to the fate of the Afrika Corp. Rommel himself thought the plan so important, he offered to lead the invasion.
In my opinion, even if Hitler had waited until 1942, the amount of manpower that was being used to build up the army and airforce would still have left the Kriegsmarine with too little workpower, and still would not have been able to complete plan Z.
Plus, Ian, who was the author of that book?
- Siftingsand
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Siftingsand said
Mrhistory said
You're all forgetting an number of Problems Germany had. The reason Hitler refused to attack Malta is because Mussolini demanded control. Hitler wasn't going to expend German lives for Mussolini's happiness the only reason the Afrika Corps existed is because Hitler knew that losing north Africa would be a death knell. The Attack on Crete was a brilliant and masterful operation when you taken into account how much in infancy airborne attacks were.
Malta should have been taken to gain the control of the shipping lane to North Africka. Since, at one point, rouphly 60% of the supplies shipped were sunk by Force K, Rommel was forced to retreat in Africka to shorten his supply lines. It was not just because Mussolini demanded control. Maltas fate was in fact tied directly to the fate of the Afrika Corp. Rommel himself thought the plan so important, he offered to lead the invasion.
In my opinion, even if Hitler had waited until 1942, the amount of manpower that was being used to build up the army and airforce would still have left the Kriegsmarine with too little workpower, and still would not have been able to complete plan Z.
Plus, Ian, who was the author of that book?
Plan Z would have needed a fair bit of time and yeah I doubt it would have got done by 1942 they should have started it as early as possible for a chance of it to be ready for WW2
For you Siftingsnad :P = the author of that book R.H.S. Stolfi
It shows what is accepted as truth usually is a generalisation of isolated incidents (for the first year or so).
It's an extremely interesting book which shows his presumptions of what would have happened if Army Group Centre went for Moscow in August and then he goes through each point which would be involved such as logistics, manpower, panzer strength etc. and shows that all the points show enough reasoning to presume that the Moscow-Gorski space would have been in German hands at the end of the year if Army Group Centre had attacked in August.
Hopefully a helpful link for you: http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Panzers-East-World-Reinterpreted/dp/0806125810
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
Siftingsnad thanks you much. I think I will look into it. Would you happen to know the name of a book about D-day, came out late last year?
- Siftingsand
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Siftingsand said
Siftingsand thanks you much. I think I will look into it. Would you happen to know the name of a book about D-day, came out late last year?
I'm afraid not. Never really was into books of WW2 just looked up different aspects and different campaigns and so forth and not really books dealing with large sectors of WW". Then my girlfriend got a library card so I use no it to get books of interest now xD. Got two really interesting conterfactual history books recently
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Third-Reich-Victorious-Alternate-Decisions/dp/1853674923
http://www.amazon.com/Rising-Sun-Victorious-Alternate-History/dp/0345490169
Same author. One interesting chapter in Third Reich Victorious is related to our conversation with Plan Z where in this chapter during World War 1 Hitler served in the navy instead of the army and because of his experience had the British as the main enemy instead of the USSR during the thirties put most of the rearmament to a navy and through this conquered Britain and, a bit out of the blue, South Africa and British Honduras among others as well as the countries it conquered historically.
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
That sounds interesting. Nothing I would have ever come up with on my own. I'm kind of an avid reader, especially of What ifs, all throughout the course of human history. So whenever someone mentions something that sounds of interest, I pounce on the oppertunity to check it out. I will definetley look into the first one, although I'm not a huge fan of the Pacific theatre.
Thanks for the info.
Now I'm looking at one he wrote for D-day. Thanks!
Do you know any good WW1 counterfactuals?
- Siftingsand
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Siftingsand said
That sounds interesting. Nothing I would have ever come up with on my own. I'm kind of an avid reader, especially of What ifs, all throughout the course of human history. So whenever someone mentions something that sounds of interest, I pounce on the oppertunity to check it out. I will definetley look into the first one, although I'm not a huge fan of the Pacific theatre.
Thanks for the info.
Now I'm looking at one he wrote for D-day. Thanks!
Do you know any good WW1 counterfactuals?
As of yet I don't sadly xD
For the book you wondered of earlier if you search D-Day book 2009 in google one comes up which could be the one you was on about
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
Thanks. Unfortunetly, now there are no more threads to get into deep discussion about.
But you definitley should try some of the WW1 ones. I highly suggest it.
- Siftingsand
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