I seem to remember being taught, and hearing and reading, about the fact that the Japanese were most definitely not on their last leg. They were fighting extremely well and American casualties were building up rapidly. So to prevent more dead soldiers from coming home, Truman ordered nuclear attacks to finish the war quickly. The Japanese would have won a war of attrition if the US hadn't bombed them.
Omid said
I seem to remember being taught, and hearing and reading, about the fact that the Japanese were most definitely not on their last leg. They were fighting extremely well and American casualties were building up rapidly. So to prevent more dead soldiers from coming home, Truman ordered nuclear attacks to finish the war quickly. The Japanese would have won a war of attrition if the US hadn't bombed them.
There's reports Japan would have surrendered if it wasn't unconditional. They couldn't have won a war of attrition either against the US. They had practically no supplies and couldn't get any.
If you mean with men it could be possible for the Japanese to win as the estimate was 2 million casualties for the Americans. They had the manpower for that even though that amount of casualties would have caused an uproar in America which may have meant America disengaging from fighting Japanese forces in Japan
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
I remember reading somewhere that the Japanese military in the event of American invasion of main islands would have Japanese soldiers dressed as civilians and wait first for the Americans to come in force onto the island then start massing causalities.
- undergeneral
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Was Truman out of his mind? The bomb a way for showing american dominance?
I don't know about that.
The thing is: Japan was the aggressor, had killed countless millions in senseless, stupid and pointless wars. It was for imperialism, under the saying that without conquering those lands, Japan would run out of resources. Bullshit! Especially if you consider the fact that neither the U.S. nor the U.K. interfered with any Japanese actions until Pearl Harbour.
The Japanese got what they had coming for themselves, and the same goes for my German ancestors. In Germany, its an unspoken fact that "It could have been us", meaning a bomb could have obliterated German cities if we had been more successful militarily. Considering everything that was done in the name of German racial superiority, the Germans (guilty as individuals, or as group, or not) got away easy, and even more so did the Japanese. Germany suffered 10 million losses total, Japan something like half a million total. And about the whole resource/Lebensraum justification:
Can you imagine what could have been, had Germany stayed democratic and on the side of the Allies? You think the German rebuild after a war was a wonder? But Germany would have emerged from the great economic crisis of the 30s as the second largest economic and military power of the world for propably most of the 20th century, would they had not gone completely batshit insane. And I am not even talking about the cultural loss of the entire world in terms of the then emerging brilliant architects, writers and scientist in Germany, patriotic for Germany, but sadly enough bound for concentration camps. There would be no middle east today, and China would most likely be divided into several harmless countries. Possibly, even Russia could have taken a different turn, considering the vast cultural power of a democratic Germany in these days. Marx, a German. Lenins rise to power - Germany funded that to get rid of an enemy in WWI. Every goddamn last philosophical and political movement of the day had its roots in Germany.
No, the fault lies with the Japanese and Tojo, not the Americans who used the bomb.
Now imagine if Germany hadn't fought in the WW1, they where the most advanced country in the world.
We would probably be speaking German in this forum today.
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Odanan said
Now imagine if Germany hadn't fought in the WW1, they where the most advanced country in the world.
We would probably be speaking German in this forum today.
Their industrial output and increases were mightily impressive.
They spent way too much money trying to compete with the Royal Navy though. They started too late and would never have caught up along with the fact the Royal Navy also used the two power standard meant any time Germany enlarged it's navy so did the the UK comparatively. They should have made a navy geared towards defense and not one of power projection.
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
Odanan said
Now imagine if Germany hadn't fought in the WW1, they where the most advanced country in the world.
We would probably be speaking German in this forum today.
LOL, why do you think that you would speak German??? lol
Fact is that Hitler never had in mind to inavde the UK. So if you live in the UK ... relax. If youre a Norweigan or Finnish ... you might speak German ... NOT!
Fact is that it is very unlikely that you any of us would speak German, cause HItler never could win. Either USA would have won if UK had felt, or USSR could have cleard up the mess. But if Germany had won against USSR to!? Well to occupy Russia and rest of Europe and keep "collect" Jews would take aLOT of troops. So finally it would be to much for Germany! USA could very easy retake all Europe by them self.
And, between 1938-1944 many atempts to kill Hitler and the top Nazis were made. So surely there would have been a lot of things that worked against the Nazis and Hitler.
And the wacky and unrealistic ideology that Hitler created (there is only one thoroughbred race) would eventually end up with a bloodbath and civil war in Germany would eventually break out. Equally so, the whole of Europe stand up against this government and occupation, such as the Eastern Europe Against did against the Soviet Union. So today, we would be free in Europe. A lot less people would live, much more would be white, and we woud be a bit richer. Also nazi influens would have made Europe to a very fascist and racist!
"Idea becomes real" - Nordic Battle Groups motto
"A mans success isn't based on how high he can reach at the top ... only how high he bounces up when he have hit the bottom" - General G.S Patton
- thegeniusmartin
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thegeniusmartin said
Odanan said
Now imagine if Germany hadn't fought in the WW1, they where the most advanced country in the world.
We would probably be speaking German in this forum today.
LOL, why do you think that you would speak German??? lol
Fact is that Hitler never had in mind to invade the UK. So if you live in the UK... relax. If you're a Norwegian or Finnish ... you might speak German... NOT!
Operation Sea Lion :P
Fact is that it is very unlikely that you any of us would speak German, because Hitler never could win. Either USA would have won if UK had fell, or the USSR could have cleared up the mess. But if Germany had won against USSR to!? Well to occupy Russia and rest of Europe and keep "collecting" Jews would take a LOT of troops. So finally it would be to much for Germany! USA could very easily retake all Europe by themselves.
They would have to do an amphibious invasion across the entire Atlantic and this would be impossible in the time period
And, between 1938-1944 many attempts to kill Hitler and the top Nazis were made. So surely there would have been a lot of things that worked against the Nazis and Hitler.
And the wacky and unrealistic ideology that Hitler created (there is only one thoroughbred race) would eventually end up with a bloodbath and civil war in which Germany would eventually break out. Equally so, the whole of Europe would stand up against this government and occupation, such as the Eastern Europe Against did against the Soviet Union. So today, we would be free in Europe. A lot less people would live, much more would be white, and we would be a bit richer. Also Nazi influence would have made Europe very fascist and racist!
He is on about WW1 not WW2 :P.
I also believes he means in influence like America has today with McDonalds, MTV etc. and what the UK did when they built an empire. English is the main business language because of the UK then America. If Germany had not started WW1 they would be the major industrial power so the business language may have switched to German and filtered down so the international language to speak in would be German not English
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
OK, sry :P
But does it matter, wasnt my post good or at least interesting?? I put on a lot of thought and time on it .... :)
"Idea becomes real" - Nordic Battle Groups motto
"A mans success isn't based on how high he can reach at the top ... only how high he bounces up when he have hit the bottom" - General G.S Patton
- thegeniusmartin
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thegeniusmartin said
OK, sorry :P
But does it matter, wasn't my post good or at least interesting?? I put on a lot of thought and time on it .... :)
It's OK
It is well thought out on the repercussions of Germany winning WW2 and conquered countries reactions
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
Thank you! :)
"Idea becomes real" - Nordic Battle Groups motto
"A mans success isn't based on how high he can reach at the top ... only how high he bounces up when he have hit the bottom" - General G.S Patton
- thegeniusmartin
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thegeniusmartin said
Odanan said
Now imagine if Germany hadn't fought in the WW1, they where the most advanced country in the world.
We would probably be speaking German in this forum today.
LOL, why do you think that you would speak German??? lol
Fact is that Hitler never had in mind to inavde the UK. So if you live in the UK ... relax. If youre a Norweigan or Finnish ... you might speak German ... NOT!
Fact is that it is very unlikely that you any of us would speak German, cause HItler never could win. Either USA would have won if UK had felt, or USSR could have cleard up the mess. But if Germany had won against USSR to!? Well to occupy Russia and rest of Europe and keep "collect" Jews would take aLOT of troops. So finally it would be to much for Germany! USA could very easy retake all Europe by them self.
And, between 1938-1944 many atempts to kill Hitler and the top Nazis were made. So surely there would have been a lot of things that worked against the Nazis and Hitler.
And the wacky and unrealistic ideology that Hitler created (there is only one thoroughbred race) would eventually end up with a bloodbath and civil war in Germany would eventually break out. Equally so, the whole of Europe stand up against this government and occupation, such as the Eastern Europe Against did against the Soviet Union. So today, we would be free in Europe. A lot less people would live, much more would be white, and we woud be a bit richer. Also nazi influens would have made Europe to a very fascist and racist!
You are right, but thats not what I meant and what was subsequently answered to: I meant that if Germany hadn't succumb to Nazi Ideology, it would have been the second largest economy for the rest of the 20th century, and very likely it would have been culturally very very dominant. Just think of all the scientist, architects, writers of that time, many of whom (in our reality) either emigrated to UK/Us (Einstein, Freud), or where simply put into a gas chamber.
There would be no conflict in the middle east today (or very unlikely, anyway, as there were indeed plans for this in the Jewish community even without the Holocaust). Who knows, Russia might have fallen apart against an invader that wasn't inciting fear but would come as a liberator (a Democratic Germany, that is), maybe in reaction to some random Russian invasion into the Baltic or some other sphere of German influence at the time.
If Hitler had died in 1938 he'd probably be regarded as one of the best leaders in history.
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- deathscompanion
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deathscompanion said
If Hitler had died in 1938 he'd probably be regarded as one of the best leaders in history.
This thread died in September 2010. Are you planning to bring back Hitler too? "This time - no more Mr. Nice Guy!"
Huxley
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- Huxley2
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I think Japan would have surrendered 80% of their supplies were gone and were unable to import anything. Truman's act was bad towards the Japanese people and nobody can be certain of his real reasons. So a horrible unneeded act turned out good for once, except for the unlucky ones innocents who perished. The good is that Japan is our ally and has a very good economy now.
The reason I think the bombs were dropped was to force a quick unconditional surrender, to be able to move into japanese controlled territories before the soviets did, but nobody can say for sure.
Odanan said
Am I the one one here who thinks the atomic bombing on Japan was a good thing? It was good for USA (for obvious reasons) and it was especially good for the Japanese! Japan was going to fight "to the last man" (or to the last woman and children), so losing less than 300,000 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was in the end a good deal.
Luckily Japan didn't surrender earlier. We know what happened with Germany after the WW1. It was the absolute defeat of Japan and Germany in WW2 that made them the great countries they are today - not only economically, but is was a moral lesson. They became much more pacifists than the winners.
I couldn't agree more here, the battle for siapan in the marianas showed that not only the army but the civilians where ready to either fight to the death or commit suicide. For example here are some staggering but true figures for the battle for saipan, out of a military garrison of 40k only 1k surrendered the rest being killed in combat or suicide. But the civilians also attacked the marines and where cut down by artiliry fire. Out of the some 25k civilians almost 20k died mostly by commiting suicide some by jumping off the cliffs into the surf dotted with jagged rocks while holding their children. This sort of fighting to the last man is not an isolated incedent nor is it some sort of propaganda as is well documented in almost every battle of the pacific campaign, most notably at saipan but also at okinawa where again similar civilan results occured. Anyone claiming otherwise simply does not know their history or the facts of the matter.
The other thing that cannot be underestimated is just how differant their culture was to western culture particularly in regard to military thinking. You must realize that the idea of surrender when all is logicly lost is an idea that the west has and was not shared by eastern particularly the japenesse culture of the time. It (surrender) would be against every single thing their entire centuries old culture stood for, as all honor was lost and honor was held in higher regard than ones own life.
Beyond that you must understand the massive pressure on the truman administration at the time to end the war with japan as quickly as possible before the russians would have to be brought in on the post war settlement as had happened in germany. They where well aware of the coming cold war and did not want another post war nation split in two that it had to worry about every single russian troop movement as being a possible invasion. Actually a better example than east / west germany was they were precisely trying to avoid what ended up happening some 7-8 years later to korea with a communist north and a democratic south.
Further more as far as it being a show of force to the russians prehaps truman thought of this however this was not a primary or even a secondary reason for droping the bomb. What was first and formost in his mind, in my and most historians opinion, was the massive casualties (upwards of one million) that were forcast for an invasion of the mainland islands and thats just in US military loses multiply that by 5 to 10 fold for the civilian casualties. Interesting to note also is that at first truman did not want to use the bomb and while debating the issue Henry Stimson the secretary of state said to him "Mr. President what will you say next year at your impeachment hearing when the american people find out you had a weapon that could have ended the war but you refused to use it?" Its said that this is what finally swayed him.
In conclusion 'Was Truman out of his mind?' no he most certainly was not. By ending the war when and how he did, he in fact saved at least many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives not only of military servicemen but of civilians. As well generations of japenesse, well at least two, were saved the fate of korea in so far as being spilt half communist and half democratic. Was it horrible that some 200k civilians died? Yes of course it was but I and many other historians would agree that many more would have been lost if a full invasion of the mainland was attempted. As well it could be said that in hindsight after seeing just how horrible of a weapon it is, I think that was and is no small part in the reason that another atomic weapon has not been used in war since.
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Also the Americans only had a vauge idea what would happen when they dropped the bomb they had no clue about radiation and the reason they picked hiroshima was because it hadn't been bombed before so they could see how much damage it caused.
You cant move forwards while your looking backwards
- deathscompanion
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This is one instance when I agree with Truman. All Casualties proposed by experts, MacArthur Nimitz Marshall Stimson etc, were incredibly high. They would also have been much higher had the fanatic civ population got involved, and its a good chance at least some would. Lastly, at least some credit goes to the Emperor for deciding to end the war when he did. The Americans planned to have 7 bombs ready by X-Day which was November 1st. They told soldiers to stay out of areas hit by A-bombs for at least 48 hours, so basically they had little idea about what the extra radiation would do. So all the soldiers get infected with radiation then come home and start the baby boom, there's a recipe for disaster.
"You do your worst, and we shall do our best. We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it"-Winston Churchill
"Today,Freedom is on the Offensive, Democracy is on the march"-Douglas MacArthur
- PrelateZeratul
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