DISCUSSIONS
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Any discussion of the operation, its strengths, its weakness, its failures, and such.
- Siftingsand
- location: Unknown
- joined: Apr 24, 2010
- posts: 26
well, they had tanks, i suppose that's a strength, where it not for the little glitch of trying to move them through narrow paths towards bridges that weren't even their's yet, while the poor airborne units capturing said bridges were short on supplies and had little to no anti-tank weapons, while allied command decided to pretend like german tanks don't exist, leading to a massive failure that could have been averted if the allies actually thought things out a bit more.
- warman45
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 22, 2009
- posts: 288
There are many reasons but I will state two major ones.
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The Allies were itching to use their expensive airborne forces.
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The Allies thought the Heer was on the brink of collapse.
Before anyone says 'Patton should have been given command etc.'
Patton was not of the same rank as Monty and was a flank guard for US forces so he would have never been given Monty's command. The mere idea of it is ridiculous. He was not great at set piece battles and failed when he faced organised resistance. He was not there to lead thrusts; he had his weaknesses and strengths like every other general. He was great at exploiting a breach in the line and causing havoc in the enemy rear areas.
There are other US generals who are far more deserving of credit than Patton.
I'm not sure thats the point.
"Mors ultima linea rerum est mortalis."
- MajorLufbery
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: France
- joined: Aug 12, 2009
- posts: 1173
What do you mean?
In my experience the idea of Patton leading the thrust almost always comes up in some form or that the attack should have been in the US sector which was impossible due to logistics issues.
Think of it as a pre-emptive strike.
Patton is a superb tank commander, the bigger issue was Patton's Temper that's what kept his rank down not any mistakes or failures. Market Garden was just a failure due to one thing and one thing only. Bad intel. The allies ran Market Garden under the assumption that the Netherlands were the same defensive level they had been three weeks after D-Day in fact Hitler had pulled a large number of the Home Army troops that were stationed in the Netherlands and replaced them with Crack Armored units including the 9th and 10th SS Panzer, 176th Infantry, the 1st Fallschirmarmee and the 1st 2nd and 86th Parachute Corps. Market Garden was a dumb Idea because it operated under the assumption that the German's would not be able to destroy or fortify the bridges over the Rhine and that the Paratrooper Divisions would be able to hold out on their own while the Armor crawled up the main Highway. Not to mention German good fortune in intelligence gathering after the operation started which let them know the allied plan so they could focus their forces. The Allies were over confident and willing to work on old intelligence and as a result the Netherlands suffered under more German occupation where as the main push could have been through the Alsace-Loraine region or the Ardennes.
honestly, i dont think any attack at that point of the war would have been worth it, another more months of massing would have been better.
- warman45
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 22, 2009
- posts: 288
Mrhistory said
Patton is a superb tank commander, the bigger issue was Patton's Temper that's what kept his rank down not any mistakes or failures. Market Garden was just a failure due to one thing and one thing only. Bad intel. The allies ran Market Garden under the assumption that the Netherlands were the same defensive level they had been three weeks after D-Day in fact Hitler had pulled a large number of the Home Army troops that were stationed in the Netherlands and replaced them with Crack Armored units including the 9th and 10th SS Panzer, 176th Infantry, the 1st Fallschirmarmee and the 1st 2nd and 86th Parachute Corps. Market Garden was a dumb Idea because it operated under the assumption that the German's would not be able to destroy or fortify the bridges over the Rhine and that the Paratrooper Divisions would be able to hold out on their own while the Armor crawled up the main Highway. Not to mention German good fortune in intelligence gathering after the operation started which let them know the allied plan so they could focus their forces. The Allies were over confident and willing to work on old intelligence and as a result the Netherlands suffered under more German occupation where as the main push could have been through the Alsace-Loraine region or the Ardennes.
He commanded a bit more than a single tank.
Market Garden was a failure due to a number of reasons than just one. 1st AAA was in Britain out of the fighting for some time and the pressure to use this large force of crack troops was pretty big. Bereton, commander of 1st Allied Airborne, was concerned about the morale of his paras who were stuck in England as the other forces were advancing on the continent. Allied supplies were stretched and there was only enough for one big push and the Allies believed this could end the war. The German ability to reorganise and the tenacity of its defence and a bunch of other reasons. To ignore them is like saying D-Day was only successful because of the FUSAG deception.
Market Garden operated under many assumptions; not just one. Primarily, the Allies thought the Germans had 'shot their bolt' and that was them. They underestimated the German ability to reorganise when given some breathing space.
The prime reason the offensive took place where it did was because it led to the vital and thus strategically important German industrial area. If that is taken then the war is effectively won as you cannot fight a war without supplies. An offensive through the Ardennes or Alsace-Lorraine would be a waste of resources as they went nowhere of strategic importance. It was the major industrial centres that mattered.
All I was saying is that Patton would have never been given command for the reasons I mentioned earlier. The use of the airborne meant that an offensive could only take place in the British sector for logistical reasons. Patton was not Monty or Bradley's equal in command; Patton was an army commander and not an army group commander. While excellent in pursuit he floundered when faced with prepared defences (Metz); the set piece battle was not in his skill set. He had his strengths and weaknesses like every other general.
Personally, I do not understand the fixation with Monty, Patton and Rommel. The major reason they are well known is that they were in the media a lot at the time. There were other generals that simply got on with the job and tried to do their best. Furthermore, Monty, Rommel and Patton held different commands and commanded different armies with different doctrines so it is really futile to compare them.
At the end of the day it is the poor infantry and tankers that have to carry the fight to the enemy and suffer.
Anyway, something a bit less serious. If you want to wargame out OMG there is a fairly realistic, albeit, old (10+ years) game out where you can do that. It's called Close Combat 2 and I would recommend it to anybody; it's also one heck of a challenge. It has a great morale system too.
although the allies would naturally prefered to have had a better result for market garden the operation was no less a failure than what the russians lost in manpower to secure many of their 'victories' . in general things do not happen for one single reason but for many different ones, however in a war when both sides fight to win then hell breaking loose is a certainty.
as for the generals: they have their own style, sometimes just dictated by circumstances but the difference between a 'brilliant' and a mere good one is sometimes simply 'intuition', 'faith' or sometimes ... just luck when he makes a decision. in some of these wargames we probably have more info then they had to base their decisions on.
- menasure
- location: Unknown
- joined: May 24, 2010
- posts: 2
ILUSTRATION OF THE EFFECTS OF HINDSIGHT
you: dont turn that corner the SS panzers are there!
Monty: who the hell are you? shoo let me fight my war
Patton: ya get lost
you: fine i'll make my own team
5 days later
You: Suck it guys!
patton: he knows my every move!
Monty: oh no so much defeat, i should pull back
Patton: that's it! i'll lead the conterattack myself, i'll just take my jeep to the front and lead personally
Patton has been eliminated
Monty: ummm, willing to make a deal?
- warman45
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 22, 2009
- posts: 288
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