I read the Wargamer interview with Niall Ferguson that was posted on the front page of the MH website. In it, Niall said he was frustrated by the historical inaccuracies he found in the games he tried to play. He mentioned Age of Empires and Civilization, but wasn't sure if those were among the games that bothered him.
Can you think of any historical video/PC games where you noticed glaring or perhaps subtle errors? Anything so heinous that made you want to stop playing the game?
Most of the games I played seemed to be pretty accurate based on what I know of history, so I can't think of any off the top of my head. Although if I had to pick something, the way Civilization progresses through time can bug me. Part of it might have been my own fault, but even the worst player shouldn't be allowed to progress as far as the 1900's and still be using axemen for thier armies and have yet to discover electricity hehe. Granted I'm a lot better at Civ now, to the point where I can have airships by mid 1800s.
Well apparently there's this pretty big one in Rome: Total War. Rome is pretty much split into four factions- (I MIGHT HAVE THESE NAMES WRONG) The House of Julii, the House of Brutii, the House of Scipii, and the Senate. Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Roman Republic wasn't divided like that.
DEMONS
There are a fair few in the Call Of Duties. In the first Call Of Duty and Call Of Duty: World At War a lot of the stuff for the Russian campaigns are just took from Enemy At The Gates and parts of Saving Private Ryan was used in the ameican campaign. Another one is an antitank gun in the multiplayer (PTRS-41) being used as a sniper rifle. Another one but obviously for balancing reasons is T-34's being able to penetrate the frontal armour of King Tiger's.
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
I feel I must condemn CoD4 and MW2 because they are historically inaccurate!
:P all jokes aside, I'm almost certain I've read a few accounts where Russian soldiers would use the PTRS as a sniper rifle when the need came about.
"I am not your son"
~JPS
- cavetroll1304
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United States
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 1260
cavetroll1304 said
I feel I must condemn CoD4 and MW2 because they are historically inaccurate!
:P all jokes aside, I'm almost certain I've read a few accounts where Russian soldiers would use the PTRS as a sniper rifle when the need came about.
The Russians used anything for anything when the need came about aha
In real life, its 6 foot length and 44lb weight would prevent it from being used as a conventional sniper rifle. It is designed to be used while prone for medium range engagements with a spotter/loader, and does not mount a scope. How it is held in-game is impossible, as the barrel would dip the weapon downwards. It also classed in-game as a bolt action rifle, even though it is a semi-automatic rifle. I call historical inaccuracy xD
The inspiration for using the PTRS-41 as a sniper rifle may have come from the famous Soviet sniper Vasili Zaitsev attaching a sniper scope to his PTRS-41 to take out machine gun nests during the battle of Stalingrad. There you go for the account
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
here's one... every movie before the 1990's that has tanks in it, if you notice, all pe-saving private ryan war movies use cold war tanks.
how bout this, the story for all of the medal of honours, (airbourne's nazi super MG wielding supersoldiers are a perfect example)
age of empires takes extreme liberties (the attila the hun campaighn shows atilla winning in germany and attacking rome, it was aleric the visigoth that sacked rome attila drunk himself to death, the agincourt map has the english retreating from there siege in defeat when in reality they won the siege before leaving) civilization is an attempt at a super-grand strategy game but it is missing the greatest factor in the development of civilizations, geography, what you should do is watch the documentary guns germs and steel, it explains why europe developed so extensively while places like north america stayed nomadic (it had to do with native crops and domesticatable animals) finally almost all media in america glorifies america above all else, the russians are portrayed as barbaric or un-important, the british are shown as un-important, the canadians apparently dont exist, the americans are crackshots with godly equipment (seriously rifles versus STG44 Assault rifle, germans win.) and anyone notice that germans are only showed as amazing troops when it makes the americans look better? ya theres media for ya.
- warman45
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 22, 2009
- posts: 288
warman45 said
finally almost all media in america glorifies america above all else, the russians are portrayed as barbaric or un-important, the british are shown as un-important, the canadians apparently dont exist, the americans are crackshots with godly equipment (seriously rifles versus STG44 Assault rifle, germans win.) and anyone notice that germans are only showed as amazing troops when it makes the americans look better? ya theres media for ya.
It sounds like SOMEONE hates America!
DEMONS
warman45 said
finally almost all media in america glorifies america above all else, the russians are portrayed as barbaric or un-important, the british are shown as un-important, the canadians apparently dont exist, the americans are crackshots with godly equipment (seriously rifles versus STG44 Assault rifle, germans win.) and anyone notice that germans are only showed as amazing troops when it makes the americans look better? ya theres media for ya.
I don't know what crap you're watching but just about everything I've seen gives due credit to everyone, German, Russian, Canadian, British etc.
As for which weapon would win, that would all depend solely on the circumstances, obviously if you're in a close urban area the STG44 has the higher chance of winning out, but when you're in a much more open area I'd happily take the weapon that makes good for longer range shooting, the rifle.
SAVING PRIVATE RYAN SPOLIER AHEAD
Ever seen Band of Brothers? If you'll notice, they don't always win. You yourself mentioned Saving Private Ryan, it's hard to say the Americans looked godly when they are all getting killed off in the end.
"I am not your son"
~JPS
- cavetroll1304
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United States
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 1260
A lot of films and programmes do make out Americans saved the day in World War 2 in my opinion and ignore or give little time to what happened before America got involved. With Saving Private Ryan if you didn't know about D-Day you would think America did it alone.
Another thing with tanks in films is usually for the German tanks they are T-34's and have wooden mock ups on top like the Tigers at the end of Saving Private Ryan
More errors in Saving Private Ryan :P One of the most notable is the depiction of the 2nd SS Division "Das Reich", as the adversary during the fictional Battle of Ramelle. The 2nd SS was not engaged in Normandy until July, and then at Caen against the British and Canadians, a hundred miles east. Further, the Merderet River bridges were not an objective of the 101st Airborne Division but of the 82nd Airborne Division, part of Mission Boston.
The ending of Saving Private Ryan in my opinion is showing heroic death of Americans while vastly outnumbered and out gunned similar to the Alamo, Tom Hanks even says one of the houses will be the Alamo xD I thought the end was just like all other films. Look like its hopeless for the good guys then something amazing happens to make the good guys win. A lot of it is usually Deus Ex Machina
Band of Brothers and saving Private Ryan are similar as Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks are involved in both and the Pacific.
With the StG-44 it showed it's worth in Battle of the Bulge. Also:
This shorter version of the German standard (7.92x57mm Mauser) rifle round, in combination with the weapon's selective-fire design, provided a compromise between the controllable firepower of a submachine gun at close quarters with the accuracy and power of a Karabiner 98k bolt action rifle at intermediate ranges. While the StG44 had less range and power than the more powerful infantry rifles of the day, Wehrmacht studies had shown that most combat engagements occurred at less than 300 m with the majority within 200 m. Full-power rifle cartridges were excessive for the vast majority of uses for the average soldier. Rifles against assault rifles at normal ranges would be better for an assault rifle.
Another one for films. Enemy at the Gates is a completely fictional account by Zaitsev of having a duel with a top ranking German sniper
Nazi Zombies are also completely false xD (lmao)
Another false account in Age of Empires is the depiction of William Wallace plus the fact you can have a car what fires machine guns xD
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
ian241289 said
Nazi Zombies are also completely false xD (lmao)
You sir have destroyed my dreams of razing the entire Third Reich from the dead just so I could kil lthem all. Thanks a lot.
Impressive, though. Quite a vast amount of knowledge on World War 2 there. I hope I can learn all that stuff one day.
DEMONS
FDR said
ian241289 said
Nazi Zombies are also completely false xD (lmao)
You sir have destroyed my dreams of razing the entire Third Reich from the dead just so I could kil lthem all. Thanks a lot.
Impressive, though. Quite a vast amount of knowledge on World War 2 there. I hope I can learn all that stuff one day.
It's currently false but fear not it is possible
http://www.cracked.com/article_15643_5-scientific-reasons-zombie-apocalypse-could-actually-happen.html
Your dreams are still alive
Thank you for the compliments. Most is learned through searching things in games and so forth on wikipedia and that to see what they are and that. I have a lot of spare time on my hands : [
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
ian241289 said
FDR said
ian241289 said
Nazi Zombies are also completely false xD (lmao)
You sir have destroyed my dreams of razing the entire Third Reich from the dead just so I could kil lthem all. Thanks a lot.
Impressive, though. Quite a vast amount of knowledge on World War 2 there. I hope I can learn all that stuff one day.
It's currently false but fear not it is possible
http://www.cracked.com/article_15643_5-scientific-reasons-zombie-apocalypse-could-actually-happen.html
Your dreams are still alive
Thank you for the compliments. Most is learned through searching things in games and so forth on wikipedia and that to see what they are and that. I have a lot of spare time on my hands : [
Eh, don't feel bad. Wikipedia just gave me a history lesson on San Marino.
DEMONS
FDR said
It's currently false but fear not it is possible
http://www.cracked.com/article_15643_5-scientific-reasons-zombie-apocalypse-could-actually-happen.html
Your dreams are still alive
Thank you for the compliments. Most is learned through searching things in games and so forth on wikipedia and that to see what they are and that. I have a lot of spare time on my hands : [
Eh, don't feel bad. Wikipedia just gave me a history lesson on San Marino.
Me too. I wonder what the Italian commander of the convoy was thinking today...
'If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much!'
- Dutchie
- location: Netherlands
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 400
FDR said
ian241289 said
Nazi Zombies are also completely false xD (lmao)
You sir have destroyed my dreams of razing the entire Third Reich from the dead just so I could kil lthem all. Thanks a lot.
Impressive, though. Quite a vast amount of knowledge on World War 2 there. I hope I can learn all that stuff one day.
Have you ever seen the film Outpost btw? It's the closest film based on nazi zombies on World at War http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEI-v5pdivA
Damn good film and a fair few parts to make you jump and scream like a girl xD
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
FDR said
ian241289 said
Nazi Zombies are also completely false xD (lmao)
You sir have destroyed my dreams of razing the entire Third Reich from the dead just so I could kil lthem all. Thanks a lot.
Impressive, though. Quite a vast amount of knowledge on World War 2 there. I hope I can learn all that stuff one day.
A little hard to do when your using the wrong kind of raise(raze).
"Mors ultima linea rerum est mortalis."
- MajorLufbery
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: France
- joined: Aug 12, 2009
- posts: 1173
GothikOrk said
I read the Wargamer interview with Niall Ferguson that was posted on the front page of the MH website. In it, Niall said he was frustrated by the historical inaccuracies he found in the games he tried to play. He mentioned Age of Empires and Civilization, but wasn't sure if those were among the games that bothered him.
Can you think of any historical video/PC games where you noticed glaring or perhaps subtle errors? Anything so heinous that made you want to stop playing the game?
Most of the games I played seemed to be pretty accurate based on what I know of history, so I can't think of any off the top of my head. Although if I had to pick something, the way Civilization progresses through time can bug me. Part of it might have been my own fault, but even the worst player shouldn't be allowed to progress as far as the 1900's and still be using axemen for thier armies and have yet to discover electricity hehe. Granted I'm a lot better at Civ now, to the point where I can have airships by mid 1800s.
Civilization is not a game based on accuracy, if starting on a make believe fantasy map and the Native American Faction starting in pure tundra didn't alert you to this nothing will.
Also, Call of Duty is not a game based on accuracy either, if you were playing a game such as ArmA2 which is the most realistic battlefield simulator and they claim this and you found something unrealistic then you have a legitimate argument. But as far as I know Activision or Infinity Ward are not out there saying this game will blow your mind with realism. Your arguments are now void, all your bases belong to me.
We can talk about how historically inaccurate the map of MH is, I am down for that Ian where are your arguments for a game that is used in schools to teach the kiddies?
Now, as for your arguments about how movies depict Americans as heroes what do you expect, they are made by American directors. If you want them to show how France lost and how Britain did hardly anything of note besides North Africa and Battle of Britain (which movies show Americans as the heroes of too with our volunteer forces) then that's be cool I would say that is pretty noteworthy IMHO.
Now as for the historical inaccuracies in these movies/shows, they are for entertainment. I don't think the point of these films are to educate the masses.
Entertainment = Money
Historical Accuracy =/= Money
That is all.
Make This Pledge:
War is peace.
Slavery is freedom.
Ignorance is strength.
i didn't say i wasn't surprised, jsut that it was inacurte. i would like to see a dieppe or a juno beach movie, i think that would be cool.
- warman45
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 22, 2009
- posts: 288
AlfredBNJ said
GothikOrk said
I read the Wargamer interview with Niall Ferguson that was posted on the front page of the MH website. In it, Niall said he was frustrated by the historical inaccuracies he found in the games he tried to play. He mentioned Age of Empires and Civilization, but wasn't sure if those were among the games that bothered him.
Can you think of any historical video/PC games where you noticed glaring or perhaps subtle errors? Anything so heinous that made you want to stop playing the game?
Most of the games I played seemed to be pretty accurate based on what I know of history, so I can't think of any off the top of my head. Although if I had to pick something, the way Civilization progresses through time can bug me. Part of it might have been my own fault, but even the worst player shouldn't be allowed to progress as far as the 1900's and still be using axemen for thier armies and have yet to discover electricity hehe. Granted I'm a lot better at Civ now, to the point where I can have airships by mid 1800s.
Civilization is not a game based on accuracy, if starting on a make believe fantasy map and the Native American Faction starting in pure tundra didn't alert you to this nothing will.
Also, Call of Duty is not a game based on accuracy either, if you were playing a game such as ArmA2 which is the most realistic battlefield simulator and they claim this and you found something unrealistic then you have a legitimate argument. But as far as I know Activision or Infinity Ward are not out there saying this game will blow your mind with realism. Your arguments are now void, all your bases belong to me.
We can talk about how historically inaccurate the map of MH is, I am down for that Ian where are your arguments for a game that is used in schools to teach the kiddies?
Now, as for your arguments about how movies depict Americans as heroes what do you expect, they are made by American directors. If you want them to show how France lost and how Britain did hardly anything of note besides North Africa and Battle of Britain (which movies show Americans as the heroes of too with our volunteer forces) then that's be cool I would say that is pretty noteworthy IMHO.
Now as for the historical inaccuracies in these movies/shows, they are for entertainment. I don't think the point of these films are to educate the masses.
Entertainment = Money
Historical Accuracy =/= Money
That is all.
I don't recall this with the title "Games which are meant to be historically accurate not being historically accurate." I also took a light hearted view on it and I even pointed out that most of it is for balancing purposes. Most of the inaccuracies are just for the fact people don't realise about them and they are interesting to know. They can also cause people believing things such as shooting a flame-thrower tank will cause an explosion. Some people use films as historical fact as well, someone had an argument with me as I mentioned something which wasn't the same as in Private Ryan. I apologise for the annoyance caused to you by talking about games which are not meant to be historically inaccurate xD
For the historical accuracies I merely pointed them out from interest and the World War 2 Call Of Duties are pretty accurate about weapons so the PTRS-41 was mentioned.
For the films I mentioned in Saving Private Ryan they didn't have to use SS Das Reich they could have used SS Totenkopf (Death's Head) which would have been more entertaining from their name alone. "Saving Private Ryan has been critically noted for its realistic portrayal of World War II combat." They even said they tried to make it historically accurate (Spielberg and Hanks) so wouldn't historical inaccuracies warrant a mention :P
Plus there are inaccuracies in the MH map, the designers admitted this because of time limits and balancing and it has been changed around for MH2.
Britain did hardly anything of note? The Americans did less then Britain!
We fought for 3 years longer then you. There was the Battle of The Atlantic, the BEF performed quite well in France despite the debacle because of Gamelin. We were also fighting in Asia in Singapore, India, Burma. America wouldn't have been able to do anything against Germany if Britain was out of the war. Every thing you did in Europe was matched by Britain :P Your opinion of the war sounds like a stereotypical American representation of WW2 ; ]
Historical accuracy in games such as Theatre of War 2 and Making History is stating to make a fair bit of money so:
historical accuracy = money, entertainment = money
xD
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
Where did you guys get all the money for all those weapons used on the different theaters? Ever heard of the lend lease act? Britain couldn't have gone 6 months let alone three years without all that. ^^
Now name one documentary that has ever made more money then Call of Duty :)
This to me isn't an argument it's you complaining about something that is uncontested. I don't think they added anti tank gun as sniper for "balancing" I think they added it because they probably thought it was cool and would draw some attention. Lol I love how you say I am stereotypical American, when really there is not competition, as to what would have happened if we weren't give you the resources we were or even for that matter the USSR, about 80% if not more, of the bullets you used were American made. But sure if you want to talk about stuff of note how about Singapore.. oh wait...
As far as game that have made me stop playing because of historical inaccuracies I have never had that happen because I'm not fussed by this, if a game has good game play I couldn't care less if they had a dinosaurs running through the streets instead of Panzers assisting Germans in Poland.
Make This Pledge:
War is peace.
Slavery is freedom.
Ignorance is strength.
AlfredBNJ said
Where did you guys get all the money for all those weapons used on the different theaters? Ever heard of the lend lease act? Britain couldn't have gone 6 months let alone three years without all that. ^^
Now name one documentary that has ever made more money then Call of Duty :)
This to me isn't an argument it's you complaining about something that is uncontested. I don't think they added anti tank gun as sniper for "balancing" I think they added it because they probably thought it was cool and would draw some attention. Lol I love how you say I am stereotypical American, when really there is not competition, as to what would have happened if we weren't give you the resources we were or even for that matter the USSR, about 80% if not more, of the bullets you used were American made. But sure if you want to talk about stuff of note how about Singapore.. oh wait...
As far as game that have made me stop playing because of historical inaccuracies I have never had that happen because I'm not fussed by this, if a game has good game play I couldn't care less if they had a dinosaurs running through the streets instead of Panzers assisting Germans in Poland.
I dont mind if games get a little off historic accuracy but i think dinosaurs are going too far
