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i would like to raise this question.... do you think that high level allied commanders intentionally forced the battle of the bulge.
the germans had brocken through the ardennes in the past, so the allies were well aware of the fact that armoured units could move through that region. they placed what was appropriately named the "Ghost army" in that sector and didn't reinforce it despite knowing of the German build-up in that area.
why would they do this? what was there motive? the germans were camping behind the siegfried line, a massive line of bunkers and obstacles that allowed the germans to repel any attack on the line without much effort, with all the extra troops, they could hold for at least a year. by then russia would have germany, the allies couldn't let that happen. as long as the germans were behind there wall they could not be driven out without extreme losses. but what if they didn't need to attack the germans behind there wall? what if they could force the germans into the open where allied airiel superiority, and the germans neumerical inferiority, could be exploited. It is possible that the allies intentionally weakened the ardennes so that the germans would break through there, they could then be encircled and destroyed, (the weather was exceptionally bad so the allies weren't as successfull as they could be but after the battle of the bulge the germans were significantly weakened in the west.) so.... what do you think?
- warman45
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 22, 2009
- posts: 288
I highly question that they forced it, if they believed could have beaten a huge German attack on the weakest part of their lines without taking huge losses or suffering a bad defeat then attacking the Sigfried line couldn't be as bad as you put it.
"I am not your son"
~JPS
- cavetroll1304
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United States
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 1260
The Siegfried line wasn't as insurmountable as you say, a lot of it was outdated and most of it had been used in the Atlantic Wall. It only looked impressive on paper.
The offensive was planned with the utmost secrecy, minimizing radio traffic and moving of troops and equipment under cover of darkness. Although ULTRA suggested a possible attack, and the Third U.S. Army's intelligence staff predicted a major German offensive, the offensive still caught the Allies by surprise. This was achieved by a combination of Allied overconfidence, preoccupation with their own offensive plans, poor aerial reconnaissance, and the relative lack of combat contact by the First U.S. Army in what was considered a "quiet sector". Almost complete surprise against a weakly-defended section of the Allied line was achieved during heavy overcast weather, which grounded the Allies' strong air forces.
I doubt they let it happen. It seems similar to Pearl Harbour where they thought it couldn't happen so ignored it.
The Battle of the Bulge happened because Hitler was insane and Americans ignored the possible threat, they fell to the same thought process as the French. A similar thing happened at Kasserine Pass.
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
Ian i'm impressed xD
- FockMySock
- location: Unknown
- joined: Jan 13, 2010
- posts: 82
don't i get a thank you for presenting you with the oportunity to get thankes?
- warman45
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 22, 2009
- posts: 288
=(
- warman45
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 22, 2009
- posts: 288
warman45 said
don't i get a thank you for presenting you with the oportunity to get thankes?
I'm in a nice mood so... thank you :P
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
What would happen if Hitler had won the Battle of Bulge and won the war... My my my, no DOwnfall Parodies, so i guess instead of 13 billion videos on youtube, there would be 10 billion videos :D/
- Porschegik
- location: Unknown
- joined: Jul 25, 2010
- posts: 84
Porschegik said
What would happen if Hitler had won the Battle of Bulge and won the war... My my my, no DOwnfall Parodies, so i guess instead of 13 billion videos on youtube, there would be 10 billion videos :D/
The Battle of the Bulge and winning the war had nothing whatsoever to do with Downfall. Why even mention it? Downfall took place in Berlin, on the Eastern Front, and was about the loss of the war. Quite the opposite.
Edit: nevermind, I see what you meant.
good lol.
- Porschegik
- location: Unknown
- joined: Jul 25, 2010
- posts: 84
warman45 said
i would like to raise this question.... do you think that high level allied commanders intentionally forced the battle of the bulge.
I strongly doubt it. (This coming from someone that is seriously suspicious of nearly all Allied High Command decisions.) If anything, it was an extreme case of over-confidence. "They're pretty much beaten. They should realize it and throw in the towel any time now." Sort of a tortoise-and-hare scenario.
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
CaptainPatch said
warman45 said
i would like to raise this question.... do you think that high level allied commanders intentionally forced the battle of the bulge.
I strongly doubt it. (This coming from someone that is seriously suspicious of nearly all Allied High Command decisions.) If anything, it was an extreme case of over-confidence. "They're pretty much beaten. They should realize it and throw in the towel any time now." Sort of a tortoise-and-hare scenario.
Except the tortoise won in the story whereas Germany didn't xD
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
Seems like a good tactic, if it was one. Let's not forget the defender has the advantage.
Africa is a shitstorm. Complete cluster fuck, rebellions everywhere. -SANAND
- Gmer_freak
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United States
- joined: Jun 14, 2010
- posts: 921
Not realy the advantage is with the attacker becuase you cand make the enemy react to your moves which is a huge advantage.
You cant move forwards while your looking backwards
- deathscompanion
- location: Unknown
- joined: Dec 21, 2010
- posts: 538
deathscompanion said
Not realy the advantage is with the attacker becuase you cand make the enemy react to your moves which is a huge advantage.
the advantage really depends on the strength supply and support of both the attacking and defending sides, not to forget how terrain affects the outcome of a battle for eather side and in the case of the battle of the buldge the allies had an overwellming amount of firepower spread all along the front (not including the airpower because it wasent used till later in the battle for weather concerns), and the supply of the allies vastly outmatched that of the germans, but because of weather conditions at the start of the battle it was hard too resupply the ardennes and surounding areas, which created the gap in that area, which the germans tryed too exploit
Generally speaking, combat favors the defender. To be precise, all other factors being equal (supply, level of training, morale), at 1-to-1 odds, victory almost invariably goes to the defender. The rule of thumb for attacks is that for any reasonable expectation of success, the attacker must have at least 3-to-1 odds. This is modified by the aspect that attackers usually have a localized advantage because they can pick the point of attack in advance while defenders get stretched thin because they have to defend against potential attacks nearly everywhere. [This is why any military commander on the defense with a lick of sense WILL be certain to place a mobile reserve.
The Battle of the Bulge is the epitome of a perforated defense being rescued from defeat by the timely arrival of a VERY large reserve. Had the defenders known that there was NO reserve to speak of, their motivation to hold out would have evaporated upon contact. Fortunately for the Allies, the defenders were absolutely confident that reinforcements in LARGE quantities were just days away at most. (A belief that was reinforced by the Allied supply drops and intact communications.)
Overall, the Allied High Command were most pleasantly surprised by the German onslaught. As the scale of the German commitment became apparent, it confirmed that it was then possible to destroy a LARGE amount of the German war machine, all at one go. The sheer magnitude of the German losses assured that the war would end at least 6 months earlier than they had expected it would. (But then that calculation was thrown off by just how fiercely the Volksgrenadiers [="Home Guard", consisting of old men and boys fighting to protect their homes] proved to be.)
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
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