DISCUSSIONS
I'm curious about whether Muzzy Lane plans to market MHII internationally. There is a certain symbol in the game which German law forbids, and the government in China expects 1930s place names in computer games to represent their understanding of what political entities were legitimate.
- Selfpropelled
- MHII
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 03, 2010
- posts: 32
We do have distribution in Europe/Asia, and the German version in development will not have the Nazi swastikas in it. We haven't localized into Chinese, so haven't dealt with those issues.
Producer, Making History II
I'm sure you are way ahead of me on this, but the China issue is well worth a little investigation.
About ten years ago HP ran into serious, expensive trouble because (if I recall correctly) a music CD being included as a sales promotion item with HP printers had a jewel box brochure with an interview with a singer who talked about traveling to several countries, including "China and Taiwan."
The government of China successfully demanded withdrawal of the product and an apology because the conjunction "and" implied a political position that Taiwan was not part of China.
- Selfpropelled
- MHII
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dave said
... German version in development will not have the Nazi swastikas in it..
Never thought about that. What will be used for the flag? The modern democratic flag?
"War is not a life; it is a situation. One which may neither be ignored nor accepted.”
-T.S. Elliot
"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing."
-Woody Allen
EasyC said
dave said
... German version in development will not have the Nazi swastikas in it..
Never thought about that. What will be used for the flag? The modern democratic flag?
I think Ian had a set of non-Swastika flags that he put out specifically for German players, I think Muzzy might try something like that.
"I am not your son"
~JPS
- cavetroll1304
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United States
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cavetroll1304 said
EasyC said
dave said
... German version in development will not have the Nazi swastikas in it..
Never thought about that. What will be used for the flag? The modern democratic flag?
I think Ian had a set of non-Swastika flags that he put out specifically for German players, I think Muzzy might try something like that.
What does a non-swastika Nazi flag look like?
- Shiftember
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Shiftember said
cavetroll1304 said
EasyC said
dave said
... German version in development will not have the Nazi swastikas in it..
Never thought about that. What will be used for the flag? The modern democratic flag?
I think Ian had a set of non-Swastika flags that he put out specifically for German players, I think Muzzy might try something like that.
What does a non-swastika Nazi flag look like?
I believe his were the same color scheme but featured the Iron Cross instead.
"I am not your son"
~JPS
- cavetroll1304
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United States
- joined: Aug 10, 2009
- posts: 1260
Maybe the German flag that was replaced by the Nazis would be the best choice.
- Selfpropelled
- MHII
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 03, 2010
- posts: 32
cavetroll1304 said
I believe his were the same color scheme but featured the Iron Cross instead.
Right. Just go with Wehrmacht insignia; skip the flags.
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
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CaptainPatch said
cavetroll1304 said
I believe his were the same color scheme but featured the Iron Cross instead.
Right. Just go with Wehrmacht insignia; skip the flags.
Yep, a lot of games use that for a stand-in. From what I remember of the law when I lived in Germany, you can show the swastika in things that have historical significance (i.e. documentaries, and perhaps something like the History Channel video games that are historical simulators). For anything else, the symbol cannot be shown.
cavetroll1304 said
Shiftember said
cavetroll1304 said
EasyC said
dave said
... German version in development will not have the Nazi swastikas in it..
Never thought about that. What will be used for the flag? The modern democratic flag?
I think Ian had a set of non-Swastika flags that he put out specifically for German players, I think Muzzy might try something like that.
What does a non-swastika Nazi flag look like?
I believe his were the same color scheme but featured the Iron Cross instead.
Something like this:
Hearts of Iron uses that flag. They also ran into problems regarding Germany and swatikas.
TehBoss said
cavetroll1304 said
Shiftember said
cavetroll1304 said
EasyC said
dave said
... German version in development will not have the Nazi swastikas in it..
Never thought about that. What will be used for the flag? The modern democratic flag?
I think Ian had a set of non-Swastika flags that he put out specifically for German players, I think Muzzy might try something like that.
What does a non-swastika Nazi flag look like?
I believe his were the same color scheme but featured the Iron Cross instead.
Something like this:
Hearts of Iron uses that flag. They also ran into problems regarding Germany and swatikas.
I figured they may use that.. But personally, I don't see the big deal. Yes it was a dark time in Germany's past, but you shouldn't have to act ashamed of it; it's history, s**t happens.
"War is not a life; it is a situation. One which may neither be ignored nor accepted.”
-T.S. Elliot
"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing."
-Woody Allen
I suppose ML can use the swastika in the game in the German version...
"(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes."
MODS: Deadlock: making-history.com/asset/1317 ; TCBTS: making-history.com/asset/384091 ; Zombie Apocalypse: making-history.com/asset/368403 ; Onslaught: making-history.com/asset/418213
Imagine the problem of replacing every flag with the swastika in MH2: most fascist flags have it.
And replacing by which flags? That would ruin the game... :(
MODS: Deadlock: making-history.com/asset/1317 ; TCBTS: making-history.com/asset/384091 ; Zombie Apocalypse: making-history.com/asset/368403 ; Onslaught: making-history.com/asset/418213
Odanan noted: ""(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes."
It would take a very fine lawyer to convince someone that this exception applies to a game which allows players to in effect be Hitler, invade neighbors, and win this time. I personally do not care one way or the other about games' using the symbol, and I enjoy playing Germany invading Eastern Europe sometimes, too, but if I were Muzzy Lane, I'd spare myself potential grief (as they plan to do anyway) and use a non-Nazi symbol.
- Selfpropelled
- MHII
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- posts: 32
Yep, and then Muzzy could rename the game "Making History according to the modern German and Chinese censors". Just to be on the safe side, the German government should ban the colours red, white and black from ever being used together for any purpose, just in case it might make some people pine for the good old days, or perhaps even lead to the rise of a 4th Reich.
Odanan noted: ""(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes."
That section of the German law is the very reason they cannot use it. If Making History were a factual historical simulation game, then they more than likely could be able to use it. However the MH series of games (as well as HoI and GG's WaW), are not historical recreations. Evfen though teachers may use them this game as a classroom aid, that does not automatically exempt the game from that law in Germany.
I think it is important to remember that WWII was really not that long ago and for some people it is still a very sensitive issue. I myself was named after my Grandad who died on the D-Day landings and while I find the whole war fascinating, others may find the symbolism offensive. I certainly dont believe in censorship but for many in Europe and around the world, people still have to live with the consequences of what happened. And lets face it, you cant blame the current German government for wanting to disassociate itself from this sort of symbolism, now favoured with white supremacy groups.
FangFur said
you cant blame the current German government for wanting to disassociate itself from this sort of symbolism, now favoured with white supremacy groups.
I don't blame the German Government for wanting to disassociate itself from Nazi symbolism. I blame them for using the power of the state to enforce a politically motivated censorship. Doing a bad thing for a good purpose is still a bad thing. To paraphrase Pastor Martin Niemoller, "They came first for the people who used Nazi symbols, and I didn't speak up because I didn't use Nazi symbols....."
There is a difference between shame and denial. Banning the symbol, even when people use it for historical purposes, looks more like denial to me. Erasing the symbol won't erase what happened.
MODS: Deadlock: making-history.com/asset/1317 ; TCBTS: making-history.com/asset/384091 ; Zombie Apocalypse: making-history.com/asset/368403 ; Onslaught: making-history.com/asset/418213
