DISCUSSIONS
While I agree that banning symbols is akin to banning thought, and should not be done, we as individuals can heed Niemoller's implicit call easily enough, but Muzzy Lane cannot, if they wish to do business in Germany.
As for shame and denial, it seems to me that Germany can hardly be accused of denial, especially in their school textbooks, unlike Japan, Russia, China, and the United States (and doubtless others).
- Selfpropelled
- MHII
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I agreed. They recognize their past. That's why I admire the today Germany so much.
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jdavidm said
FangFur said
you cant blame the current German government for wanting to disassociate itself from this sort of symbolism, now favoured with white supremacy groups.
I don't blame the German Government for wanting to disassociate itself from Nazi symbolism. I blame them for using the power of the state to enforce a politically motivated censorship. Doing a bad thing for a good purpose is still a bad thing. To paraphrase Pastor Martin Niemoller, "They came first for the people who used Nazi symbols, and I didn't speak up because I didn't use Nazi symbols....."
Valid point but I still maintain that maybe the German government has called this one right. If someone flew the swastika from the house next door to where you live or say the confederate flag if you live in the states would there not be major repecussions. How would the Dutch populace feel if there German neighbours started flying the swastika? And of course its politically motivated. How many countries would deal or trade with Germany if they were seen as embracing there past. The German government had to been seen to be moving completely away from its fascist routes. I suspect the ban is also endorsed by many of the European countries. In England, if you flew a swastika you would either be lynched or arrested for the charge of inciting racial hatred. Its easy to say that nothing should be censored but spare a thought for the thousands of families, paritculary in Europe that still have to live with the aftermath of WWII.
Following this line of thought, I suppose ML will need to make Germany a not-playable nation for the German release.
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People fly the Rebel (Confederate) Flag all the time in the States. People need to just stop being so easily offended. And as for the German gov't moving away from fascism, yes they are. However, oppressing people who want to use the flag also limits freedom. It's sort of a one step forward, one step back kind of thing. What the German gov't should do is allow use of the flag, but totally dissociate themselves from it.
"War is not a life; it is a situation. One which may neither be ignored nor accepted.”
-T.S. Elliot
"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing."
-Woody Allen
If your country had been utterly destroyed and become the most hated nation in the world because of an ideology and it's symbolism, you would ban everything to do with that movement and not take ANY risks. German law is really weird and complex, but they have to take these precautions. It's a good thing, not a bad thing.
FangFur said
EasyC said
. People need to just stop being so easily offended.
Sorry mate I dont want to be rude but that is a very niave thing to say.
Please explain how that is naive, for me?
"War is not a life; it is a situation. One which may neither be ignored nor accepted.”
-T.S. Elliot
"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing."
-Woody Allen
It's in the "just stop being so easily offended" part. If people could change their behavior simply by saying, "From now on I will be _ _ _ _" the world would be a MUCH better place. Just think: No more alcoholics. No more drug addicts. No more liars. No more thieves. No more philanderers. No more crooked politicians. No more.... To want this to be the case is most definitely "wishful thinking". To actually think that it's possible is "naive". (Other terms also apply, but "naive" is the nicest of them.)
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
It seems to me that whenever you market internationally, you end up with alot of foreigner's.
*Puts on suit*
"You what the difference between you and me is? I make this look good."
-Agent J
Double V
EasyC said
FangFur said
EasyC said
. People need to just stop being so easily offended.
Sorry mate I dont want to be rude but that is a very niave thing to say.
Please explain how that is naive, for me?
Its the symbolism that the flag can represent. Do you really believe that a Jewish person is not going to be offended or doesnt even have the right to be offended by the swastika. Would you in America really fly the confederate flag without knowing what it has become to represent. Would you fly that flag and say hey its my right. Would you fly that flag in a black neighbourhood and say " Dont be offended I just like the colours". The reality is even the English flag has come to represent certain negative aspects ( football (soccer) violence and racism). People attach meaning to what the symbol represents. This has been true throughout history.
Another aspect is the Neo Nazi groups in Germany (and other countries). A small number of people still embrace the fascist ideal (or at least a racist ideal) and use this symbolism for its own end. Do you not think it is wise for the German government to make sure that it can prevent this especially as Germany now has many ethnic minorities living there. If anything it strikes me as sensible policy especially as Germany rebuilds its relationship with the rest of Europe (very successfully I might add).
The end the German government and others, such as Sweden, are trying to achieve is admirable, but it all boils down to whether or not the end ever justifies the means. As soon as a government starts believing that the end justifies the means, you get things like Guantanamo Bay, political assassinations, etc. And when taken to the extreme, ultimately you end up coming full circle and you end up with someone like Hitler again. I despise the beliefs of neo Nazis, but they have just as much right as I do to disseminate their ideas in any way that does not impinge on the liberty of anyone else.
But I also understand the commercial realities that Muzzy must face and of course it has no option but to comply with the laws of any country they wish to sell in.
FangFur, you said ( The reality is even the English flag has come to represent certain negative aspects ( football (soccer) violence and racism).) what planet are you on, have you ever been to a England or any other match. Is it racist to have a English flag now, i think you should stop beliving what you read in the press.
EDL...... Dar al Harb
jdavidm said
The end the German government and others, such as Sweden, are trying to achieve is admirable, but it all boils down to whether or not the end ever justifies the means. As soon as a government starts believing that the end justifies the means, you get things like Guantanamo Bay, political assassinations, etc. And when taken to the extreme, ultimately you end up coming full circle and you end up with someone like Hitler again. I despise the beliefs of neo Nazis, but they have just as much right as I do to disseminate their ideas in any way that does not impinge on the liberty of anyone else.
But I also understand the commercial realities that Muzzy must face and of course it has no option but to comply with the laws of any country they wish to sell in.
Most of the beliefs of Neo-Nazis are racist though and racism is illegal thus voiding freedom of speech concerning the Aryan race and beliefs held on Jews etc. They don't really have much to say if they couldn't say that aha xD
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
roy64 said
FangFur, you said ( The reality is even the English flag has come to represent certain negative aspects ( football (soccer) violence and racism).) what planet are you on, have you ever been to a England or any other match. Is it racist to have a English flag now, i think you should stop beliving what you read in the press.
I understand why this annoys you but it doesnt make it any less true. I am a football fan myself ( West Ham for my sins and yes I go to see them play when I can) and enjoy watching England ( well sometimes enjoy watching England). I dont like the fact our flag has become offensive to some and definetly agree it should not be the case. However there is no way you can tell me that certain groups and people dont attach racist overtures to it. Run a search on google of 'English flag' and the direct words afterward are in order - banned, offensive, news, pictures, rascist and offends. Read some of the posts and articles and then tell me some people arent offended by it.
Waving national flags at sporting events can quickly become a Bad Idea. It's less about the sport and more about the comparative quality of the two nations competing. "Our nation is great! Your nation sucks!" It's essentially patriotic nationalism on an adrenaline high. No wonder things turn violent so often.
Someone may counter, "But what about the Olympics? It's nothing but competitive nations." The difference is in the plurality. The violence is most often in the head-to-head confrontations where 90+% of the spectators are from one two nations competing. Plus, people simply expect Olympic events to be run more calmly. (But if the Olympics and the WWF ever merge, all bets are off.)
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
All I'm saying is that people take way too much offence to symbols. Symbols mean different things to different people. To me, the Swastika has its original meaning from Hindu, Jainism, and Buddhism. Just because one person spoils a symbol doesn't mean that no one else should be allowed to use it. This explains my point well. You were being naive in assuming that it is a horrible symbol that should never be used.
"War is not a life; it is a situation. One which may neither be ignored nor accepted.”
-T.S. Elliot
"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing."
-Woody Allen
Unfortunately, symbols tend to create "brand recognition". The majority of people build up associations between the symbol and the group or individual using the symbol. The Red Cross flag, for instance is a deliberate use of the Swiss flag, but with the colors reversed. It was deliberate because of Switzerland's long history of being a Neutral nation when all other nations are at each others' throats. As an aid organization, the Red Cross wanted to stress that they too were Neutral, offering aid to any that needed it. Most people don't even remember << THAT ^^. It's almost to the point that a person could understandably see the Swiss flag and say, "They got the colors backwards!"
Yes, there have been (actually) many groups that utilized the swastika as their chosen symbol. Buy none of them are as well-known as the Nazi Party. (And I'm thinking that there have been very few groups that took the symbol as their own after the Nazi Party did its thing -- except those groups that deliberately want to tie into the Nazi symbolism.
Once it has become well-known that a given symbol is associated with a given group or company, then whatever it is that that group is most well-known for becomes attached to the symbol as well. Thereafter, to knowingly use the group's symbol implies the intent that you too want to be associated with that group's reputation. So if you don a pair of jeans decorated with a variety of swastikas, don't be surprised if people spit on you and send curses your way. You can NOT make them responsible to know some trivia that you know but they don't -- especially when there a MUCH better known negative association that most people DO know associated with the symbol.
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
FangFur said
Ok you feel free to use that arguement with an Israeli. Or even better walk round Holland wearing that flag. Unbelievable.
I will make that argument with an Israeli or a Dutch. I will not be afraid to speak my mind. It is a legitimate argument that is not biased by one usage of the symbol, but rather is based off of the origin of the symbol. The Nazi usage of the Swastika was in the past and should stay there... As a matter of fact, Hitler probably used the Swastika for the very reason of it's origin; good luck and prosperity.
As for Patch's post... I have used the Swastika in some varieties, but never to associate myself with Nazism. Although people accuse me of it, I tell them to f**k off and then I'm on my merry way using a symbol that represents what it is meant to represent.
"War is not a life; it is a situation. One which may neither be ignored nor accepted.”
-T.S. Elliot
"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing."
-Woody Allen
