DISCUSSIONS
EasyC said
I have used the Swastika in some varieties, but never to associate myself with Nazism. Although people accuse me of it, I tell them to f**k off and then I'm on my merry way using a symbol that represents what it is meant to represent.
Do you truly NOT see just how provocative you are choosing to be? What you are saying is that it would be okay for me to flash a middle-finger-only hand gesture at someone. And when they came raging at me, my legitimate defense would be, "You really should NOT get mad at me, because to me that means 'Have a nice day!' " Why not? The origin of the gesture is obscure at best; it could have meant that... somewhere.... at sometime. But beside the point, because _I_ meant it to be "Have a nice day!", THAT is how people should take it!
Not exactly a legitimate argument.
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
Try telling Japanese that they shouldn't use the swastika. It is on all their maps to represent temples. THAT is what they associate with it, and even as a westerner living in Japan I never once thought of Adolf as I read my maps. It is all about context. Similarly, the rising sun flag has no negative connotation in its home country. It is simply their naval ensign - and one could argue that the regular Japanese national flag, which was used by the army, was more closely associated with Japanese atrocities. But somehow we in the west associate the rising sun ensign with the bad things that Japan did. Wearing Ku Klux Klan garb in the US would upset your neighbours, but in Spain during Semana Santa at Easter, everyone in the parade is dressed up like Klansmen. The point is, when it comes to symbols, the strong emotions come from the context attributed to it in the mind of the beholder. The symbol itself is completely innocuous without that mindset. Therefore, perhaps the problem is not with the swastika per se, but in how people choose to let it dictate to their emotions.
What you are highlighting is that where a symbol is displayed is just as important as what it is. To use your example: Displaying a swastika is no big deal in Japan; there is fine. But it pointedly would NOT be fine to be displayed in Israel. Different places, different connotations.
With that in mind, it then becomes an obligation of sorts for the user to take into account local perception of the specified symbol. If the user knows that many/most people WILL react with hostility in the locale where he displays said symbol, but he then nevertheless goes ahead and displays it anyway, he is being deliberately provocative. In a phrase, "He's looking to pick a fight." That's anti-social behavior, and there's no good excuse for it. To show a symbol and not know that locally it is held with distaste might be forgivable. But knowing "This will piss some people off, but screw them! is just being a ..... (derogatory term).
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
I actually agree completely. To do something on purpose to annoy our fellowmen is simply rude and ignorant. I think such yobs should be shamed and shunned by the rest of us who have manners and empathy. But where we part company is when well-meaning people want to criminalise such boorish behaviour. IMO wearing a swastika should not be a criminal offence; painting one on a gravestone should be (as that would be criminal damage).
CaptainPatch said
EasyC said
I have used the Swastika in some varieties, but never to associate myself with Nazism. Although people accuse me of it, I tell them to f**k off and then I'm on my merry way using a symbol that represents what it is meant to represent.
Do you truly NOT see just how provocative you are choosing to be? What you are saying is that it would be okay for me to flash a middle-finger-only hand gesture at someone. And when they came raging at me, my legitimate defense would be, "You really should NOT get mad at me, because to me that means 'Have a nice day!' " Why not? The origin of the gesture is obscure at best; it could have meant that... somewhere.... at sometime. But beside the point, because _I_ meant it to be "Have a nice day!", THAT is how people should take it!
Not exactly a legitimate argument.
But the middle finger is not a symbol with a positive meaning.... Before Hitler, the Swastika's was either;
A: Unknown to people, or
B: The original context of the symbol
And, yes, if I went around flashing a Swastika to anyone I met would provoke a verbal attack. Ergo... That's not what I do. But whatever, I'm not asking anyone to agree, I'm just posing a logical usage of the Swastika that, if you aren't so quick to judge, can be non-malicious.
"War is not a life; it is a situation. One which may neither be ignored nor accepted.”
-T.S. Elliot
"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing."
-Woody Allen
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
CaptainPatch said
TANGENT
EasyC said
Not exactly a legitimate argument.
Actually, to the Welsh, it could be construed as a positive gesture: pluck yew
I was informed that the two finger salute came from English longbowmen showing they still had their two fingers as the French threatened to cut them off. I have never heard the middle finger salute coming from that. Or maybe some were lazy and just raised their middle finger xD
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
Everyone is talking about the swastika meaning different things in different contexts...that is fine. The context in this case is a World War II game...there is only one thing the swastika can mean in that context.
Ok I am German and so I feel I must speak on behalf of my country, the reason why swastikas are banned in all but historical and factual contexts is not to dissociate from it, but so that we are reminded whenever that flag is flown of all the pain and suffering we have caused in the past, so when a German sees the swastika it automatically makes us think of those bad things, we do not want to prohibit free speech etc... but we must always remember our horrible past so we do not do the same again. That is why we ban it in a recreational or representative context, btw its only the nazi swastika which is at a weird angle, the hindu one is allowed.
ian241289 said
CaptainPatch said
TANGENT
EasyC said
Not exactly a legitimate argument.
Actually, to the Welsh, it could be construed as a positive gesture: pluck yew
I was informed that the two finger salute came from English longbowmen showing they still had their two fingers as the French threatened to cut them off. I have never heard the middle finger salute coming from that. Or maybe some were lazy and just raised their middle finger xD
I was informed that the french did it in order to threaten the english about their fingers
In order to know how to use free will, we must first know how to fight for it.
As Basil Fawlty said, "Don't mention the war!" (from the comedy show Fawlty Towers for those not aware of this iconic line). There are numerous examples of the successful melding of comedy (ie where the focus is purely on entertainment) and the war without being disrespectful to the millions who died in it. I imagine that many people who are quite happy to outlaw the use of the swastika in a non-historical or fictional context would be appalled at the reaction by many in the Muslim world to the cartoons of Mohammad.
And besides, are war movies that are made for entertainment allowed to use the swastika in Germany? If so, why should they have different rules to strategy games? Is it because the word "game" is associated with children, and therefore obviously not worthy of being taken seriously? I guess it boils down to this: There are some of us who don't mind if the government makes all sorts of laws to protect us from ourselves. There are others who want the government out of our lives except for the minimum level required to ensure our personal safety and health (which obviously also includes police, armed forces, protection of the vulnerable, etc). These two views will never meet.
What one persons sees as the government 'ensuring our personal safety'....the other will see it as the government 'protecting us from ourselves'. So you are right...there will never be a case when EVERYONE is happy.
Germany is terrible with censorship in games. Blood has to be green for example
I tore a path screaming through wind and blood, I will it all, burning deep, in my, skull
beast566 said
Ok I am German and so I feel I must speak on behalf of my country, the reason why swastikas are banned in all but historical and factual contexts is not to dissociate from it, but so that we are reminded whenever that flag is flown of all the pain and suffering we have caused in the past
I would hate to have to be reminded of horrible things my ancestors did when I wasn't responsible for their actions. I don't mind being reminded of horrible things I have personally done, but what my grandfather did is his fault, not mine, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.
jdavidm said
I would hate to have to be reminded of horrible things my ancestors did when I wasn't responsible for their actions. I don't mind being reminded of horrible things I have personally done, but what my grandfather did is his fault, not mine, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.
I believe that the intent is not so much to remind everyone what it was that their ancestors did, but rather that, if not highlighted, future generations may very well make the same mistake. What happened in Germany in the 30s and 40s could very well have happened practically anywhere. And the inexorable rise of the Nazi Party was simply a matter of following the road to Hell, one step at a time -- because the German people were so focused on looking at their feet, they weren't looking at where the road was going. Because it happened in Germany, all of Germany got the entire blame for what the Nazis did. The vast majority of German citizens were essentially guilty of standing by and doing NOTHING while Evil was on the rise -- and << That ^^ is what the German government is so vigilant about. The world already points its collective finger at Germany for being a primary cause for TWO World Wars; so now it bends over backwards to demonstrate to the world that "We will NOT be the cause for the unleashing of another Evil upon the world."
All in all, I really can't blame the German government for being so inflexible on the issue.
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
CaptainPatch said
All in all, I really can't blame the German government for being so inflexible on the issue.
I can. The Nazi party was voted in democratically and eventually became "the government". They then used the power of the state to dismantle the freedoms the German people had previously enjoyed. What we most have to fear is governments that take away our freedoms, including the freedom to play a game with a little swastika flag in it.
The reality is if the German government allowed the use of the Swastika then Neo Nazis groups would be free to walk around Germany displaying the Swastika. And as has been stated this would offend many and lead to more public clashes and violence. Its not about a game, or a perceived slight of censorship but stopping furher conflict and offence. I suspect most German citizens are happy with its ban and couldnt care a less if some gamer is put out by this. Most people in Europe just have the common sense not to use the swastika but even in England we have laws (inciting racial hatred) to stop fascist groups using it publicaly. Its strikes me as quite selfish to think ' I want to use the Swastika so I will. Sod the millions who died and I dont care if I cause offence to there families, its my right'.
Fangfur, I'm not sure if you see the irony of the image you use when you argue so passionately against offending others. You also don't see the irony in you, yourself, playing this game which has a swastika in it. I presume the exposure hasn't and won't turn you into a neo-Nazi. Are you arguing that Germans are so weak that although you can be exposed to a swastika without becoming a neo-Nazi, they can't? And the "sod the millions who died" argument is classic straw man. No one is saying that. By playing MHII, which happens to have a swastika in it, in the privacy of my own home, I am absolutely certain I am not causing offence to anyone's family.
jdavidm said
Fangfur, I'm not sure if you see the irony of the image you use when you argue so passionately against offending others. You also don't see the irony in you, yourself, playing this game which has a swastika in it. I presume the exposure hasn't and won't turn you into a neo-Nazi. Are you arguing that Germans are so weak that although you can be exposed to a swastika without becoming a neo-Nazi, they can't? And the "sod the millions who died" argument is classic straw man. No one is saying that. By playing MHII, which happens to have a swastika in it, in the privacy of my own home, I am absolutely certain I am not causing offence to anyone's family.
Not at any point have I stated that it turns people into Neo Nazis.I suggest you read what I said again. And I thought my fellow war gamers would find the image funny rather than offensive. If it does let me know and I shall remove it. Please understand that I dont disagree with your last point. Its about the context it is used in. Once again all I am saying is that some people in certain situations would be very offended by its use and that I can understand why Germany has banned it.
