DISCUSSIONS
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As an experiment I tried to play a series of peaceful (unusual for me) Minor nations. I played each of them for about 50 years. Because I was peaceful, I didn't build any military units = no upkeep expense. One City worked on increasing its IPU output; all of the others were set to producing Textiles. The ONE University worked on developing Interchangeable Parts (a two-year project). In order to save on Coal, I built Pits instead of Mines. And since those required 40 MPUs for a nation that was growing a single digit each turn, once one Pit completed, it was awhile before I could start another one. So resource growth could NOT keep up with the demand for those resources. And once the slots were used up, Exploration wouldn't be available until Scientific Method was finished = ain't gonna happen. So once all available slots were filled, production would be frozen. That is, given that by the time that happened, the Treasury would be so far negative that there would be no money to buy the Coal and Metals required to pay to expand from Pit to Mine.
My conclusion in EVERY case was financial doom. On average, I was losing at least $10 million each turn. And in EVERY case, there was absolutely no way to make money in the World Market. If there was something that I produced an excess of, there was NO or next-to-no Demand for it, while the World Supply was in the thousands or tens of thousands. If there was something that I perennially ran short of (usually Coal and possibly Food) the World Supply was invariably ZERO or close to it, while the Demand was in the thousands. That left me repeatedly with nothing I could sell and nothing I could buy.
It seemed like all I could do was just slowly slide into total ruin.
1933 must have been devastating for pretty much the whole world. No wonder everyone went to war!
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
I haven't yet tried playing with a minor, since I am still in the process of evaluating the game from the normal perspective. However, from what I've read I suspect your difficulties are resulting from your attempt at increasing industrial output. It is quite likely that a minor is not capable of a very large increase in industrial output over such as short period as the time span of the game. It would be more sensible, taking into account global events, to try and build a, however small, military force whilst trying to maintain the economy at a respectable level. Significant development of your industrial base should be avoided.
As a perhaps valid example, in Hearts of Iron whenever I play a minor, I never do any kind of industrial development. I focus solely on building an effective force with which to either protect or expand my borders in tune with global events.
I hope this motivates you to try again.
Best regards, Radu
- Creosteanu
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United Kingdom
- joined: May 31, 2010
- posts: 45
I completely agree; playing as a minor nation is nearly impossible. It's nearly impossible to do anything without either losing resources, going bankrupt, or coming to a complete standstill. Even playing as Japan and Russia was a hassle for me, it was impossible to build any industry without going bankrupt. :(
In regards to building industrial output, it still wouldn't yield a positive cash flow. For example, If I have only ONE City that has a 5 IPU output building a Cottage Factory, once the MPUs and 200 Coal are paid, plus whatever the cash cost is, there is no additional drain while the CF is being built (40 turns to complete). During that time, my average national cash flow is a - $10 million per turn. If I instead use that City to manufacture Textiles it would be yielding a little over $8 million per turn. That means that even if I put EVERYTHING into moneymaking output, I would still be losing $2 million every turn. That means that the ONLY means of getting ahead lies in the World Market. But if the World Market never seems to want my surpluses, and whatever I need to keep operating is always not available, then there's really no point in having a World Market. It's just window dressing disguising the fact that as a Minor nation, you're doomed -- UNLESS you go on the warpath.
Chile, Ecuador, Uruguay, Paraguay, Finland: all of them can NOT avoid the slow slide into financial collapse. (At least that was the case when I played them as isolationist non-aggressor nations.)
I gather that the Supply and Demand of the World Market is supposed to be a variable, but why is it that no matter who I am in the game, consistently, there is NO Demand for what I can sell and NO Supply for what I need?
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
Bought the game from Steam yesterday and have to say it was pretty sad that your really not able to play the small nations.
Norway was also impossible to play.
- Krokill
- location: Unknown
- joined: Aug 29, 2010
- posts: 5
Well, I wouldn't say impossible.. If you just got the game, maybe you are just inexperienced (I'm not trying to be insulting). Yes, I do agree that it has become increasingly hard to make a small nations superpowers. However, if you balance diplomacy, economy, and military just right, you can be successful. The problem with Sweden is; you are surrounded by nations that (should you choose to invade them) will cause the major nations to attack you.
"War is not a life; it is a situation. One which may neither be ignored nor accepted.”
-T.S. Elliot
"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing."
-Woody Allen
In response to your complains I've decided to play a little AAR with Romania to see how it goes. Romania seems a little bit better off then other countries but not by much. The game was playable and well worth the time, but the bugs and poor planning got to me none the less. You can find the AAR in the appropriate section.
- Creosteanu
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United Kingdom
- joined: May 31, 2010
- posts: 45
The smallest nation I have tried was Cuba. I annexed Haiti and Dominican Republic and made a pretty good run in spite of a DOW by USA (they never came after me)
I had to buy resources for a considerable time but finally got somewhat self-sufficient and got out of debt.
It was nothing like a win but I got into the top 20 nations.
This was a few patches back so I am not sure it can still be done.
I tried the same thing as Mexico, annexing the Central American independents, stopping at Panama. USA would have none of it and crushed me pretty quick
Getting ahead by getting aggressive is nothing new. If your Economy isn't doing well, go out and steal somebody else's.
My observation is that not EVERYBODY (all 76 nations) should become aggressor nations, just to get by. Some of the smaller nations should be trying to get by, relying on just their own nation in order to work out of the Depression. But if the Economic model is such that a stand alone nation can't stabilize its Economy, then the game design is forcing the Minor nations into war on their neighbors.
I find ^^THAT^^ to be rather heavy-handed and NOT (as Fox News would say) "fair & balanced".
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
Fox News is a crock. The fact that they say they are fair and balanced simply demonstrates that they are not.
I tend to play as Australia but an aggressive expansion early is required. But i think Patch has a point, why should all little fellas be losing money like that.
- roaldgiggles
- MHII
- location: Unknown
- joined: Jul 05, 2010
- posts: 40
I understand now what you mean and you are correct. The global economy is unbalanced. Depending upon the time there either is a lack of everything or an abundance of everything. This is something that needs to be balanced, but if the modding facilities are made available it is something that the community can accomplish.
- Creosteanu
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United Kingdom
- joined: May 31, 2010
- posts: 45
Omid said
I completely agree; playing as a minor nation is nearly impossible. It's nearly impossible to do anything without either losing resources, going bankrupt, or coming to a complete standstill. Even playing as Japan and Russia was a hassle for me, it was impossible to build any industry without going bankrupt. :(
Just so you know, I have played Japan many times on Normal, and without taking a single other territory I have been able to build up my industry and research and become one of the top 4 nations without going bankrupt. Actually, if you just don't go crazy and slowly build up while building goods or selling arms, you can easily make money. Keep in mind that I pretty much don't build any military during this time either. I build up through about turn 400 or more just doing research and building up cities, then, I start building military then. I am usually one of the top 5 in wealth by that time, and I am number 1 in wealth if I then take over China and Tibet. You can basically win the game as #1 power points as Japan with only taking over those two countries. However, even without China & Tibet, I have consistently been able to make in the $15 - $40 billion dollar surpluses, just building up my cities and not conquering anybody.
I will try to test playing a small nation, though. I agree that a small nation should have at least a chance to survive on its own without having to conquer more territory. If a small nation cannot sustain a stable economy and be peaceful, then there is something wrong. I will report what I find out to add more to this conversation.
snapjaw said
Omid said
I have played Japan many times on Normal, and without taking a single other territory I have been able to build up my industry and research and become one of the top 4 nations without going bankrupt.
Being one of the Big 8 might have something to do with your success.
"Until you know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."
"Choose wisely"
- CaptainPatch
- MHII, MH
- location: United States
- joined: May 23, 2010
- posts: 1758
CaptainPatch said
snapjaw said
Omid said
I have played Japan many times on Normal, and without taking a single other territory I have been able to build up my industry and research and become one of the top 4 nations without going bankrupt.
Being one of the Big 8 might have something to do with your success.
I think you left out this part of Omid's quote..
Even playing as Japan and Russia was a hassle for me, it was impossible to build any industry without going bankrupt. :(
which is what snapjaw was responding to.
Does anyone think it might be because instead of in MH1/Gold you build up your industry slowly, where in here it takes X turns to build X and if it gets interrupted then it just dies. Where as in the original game you usually icreased a cities idustry every 2 turns.
Not to meantion how hard the world market seems to be.
Africa is a shitstorm. Complete cluster fuck, rebellions everywhere. -SANAND
- Gmer_freak
- MHII, MH GOLD
- location: United States
- joined: Jun 14, 2010
- posts: 921
How do the AI nations handle the situation (haven't bought the game yet)?
- Leonaru
- location: Unknown
- joined: Mar 29, 2010
- posts: 11
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